Where should I spend my money.

[Matt Gephart]

I have a stock 2008 Yamaha R1 and I run Pilot Power 2CT's at the track. When I mean stock, I mean it in all aspects (minus some minor exhaust work). Stock levers, stock clipons, stock rearsets, stock brakes and lines, stock suspension (dialed in by myself) and everything in-between.

Just for reference, I'm currently turning about 2:40 per lap at road america and am on my 7th or so track day. I improve every time I go to the track and feel good pusing my limits to that 90% that everybody says should be a max.

When is the point where I should look at some upgrades? With a stock setup, is my 200lb body going to run into a plateau where I can continue to get faster but will hit a wall? I'm not a rich man, so spending my money wisely is key.

Best bang for the buck as they say.

In my mind and from what I have read, suspension might be the first thing but is this right for where I am at in my skill level? Am I pushing the limits of my stock bikes setup in suspension? If this is the way to proceed, would a simple revalve and spring upgrade be all I need or do I need more or is there too much? I don't think I need to spend too much in suspension if I'm not there yet.

At any rate, please let me know if I need to start upgrading my bike and which way am I going to best apreciate that my money has been spent wisely.

I love nesba and all your help, and once I figure it all out, I will probably spend to get it here if possible.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[jimmeigs]

Spend it most wisely on yourself with a good school like Yamaha Champions and seat time with more track days. Any sport bike in stock trim can out perform 90% of the riders out there anyway.

That said, safety gear, tires and suspension come first.

 

[Matt Gephart]

First reply and it's a good one, thanks.

Just for reference, any idea what a seasoned rider on a stock bike like mine could pull at road america? I don't have many other tracks under my belt and Road A was the most recent. It might just give me an idea on when to start upgrading as I, or if I were ever to start approaching that time.

 

[Emerson]

Race pads, SS lines, Race brake fluid. its only about $450.00 so its not too bad.

 

[BigBird]

brakes...maybe suspension setup for your weight, such as new springs, and school

 

[moto_mx131]

Track time is the most important thing right now. Get some good front brake's when you can and ride every chance you get.

 

[JVance]

Make sure it is sprung for your weight and rock it stock other than that.

 

[jaren warren]

1. seat time
2. brake pads
3. seat time
4. tires
5. seat time
6. suspension setup by Turn One
7. seat time

I made it to A on my stock 03 F4i with better brake pads & DC III's and setup by Turn One.

 

[rk97]

+1 to what Emerson and BigBird said. Before I even read their posts, I was thinking "stainless brake lines." Pads and fluid would be logical additions as well (i'd burn through the stock pads before replacing them though)

Fork springs for your weight run $80-$100 (www.sonicsprings.com or www.racetech.com).

Shocks cost some serious money, but they're worth it.

Given that you've got a streetable bike, track bodywork might be a priority for you too. Protecting your investment might be even more important than going faster.

 

[jas0336]

I used to own your same bike (07) and I'm about your weight. I pretty much agree with what has been said but my priority would start with seat time and protection (chest+back protectors) and then upgrades would be in this order:

1) springs for your weight (almost mandatory)

2) SS brake lines...upgrade pads when the stock pads wear out (the brakes on that bike are really great but SS lines really improve feel)

3) Tires. PPs are pretty good for all around use but when they start to feel greasy upgrade to something more track oriented (DOT race). If your current tires are still good and you haven't lost confidence in them, I'd keep them until you need replacements.

To me, those are the things that would make improvements you can feel immediately and will actually increase confidence. A lot of the other stuff is preference. Track plastic if you want to save the street stuff...rear sets are nice, especially if you have an oops....clip ons also nice in case of oops. I would rock it stock and only replace things as they break/wear out or as you start noticing things that you would prefer to be different like maybe clip ons to change the bar position or rear sets to get increased grip for your boots etc.

 

[vinny337]

Emerson;132532 wrote: Race pads, SS lines, Race brake fluid.

:agree: Based on your budget you can go from there....

 

[Matt Gephart]

It seems to be alot of money to keep replacing tires; how long do those race DOT's last?

I brake so hard now on some corners that my rear tire is intermittently in contact with the ground. How will replacing the pads and the lines help me brake harder?

What exactly does getting springs set for my weight do? I have the front maxed out with preload just to make it close to where I should be on sag. Would valving help with anything, maybe not diving when I brake or will the springs do that?

Awesome help guys, thank you alot!

 

[BigBird]

Matt Gephart;132715 wrote: It seems to be alot of money to keep replacing tires; how long do those race DOT's last?

I brake so hard now on some corners that my rear tire is intermittently in contact with the ground. How will replacing the pads and the lines help me brake harder?

What exactly does getting springs set for my weight do? I have the front maxed out with preload just to make it close to where I should be on sag. Would valving help with anything, maybe not diving when I brake or will the springs do that?

Awesome help guys, thank you alot!

you can be braking too much in some instances...but new brake setup is more for feel, and new pads will work better at track temps. i rode a demo r6 and that thing felt like the brakes were made out of wood compared to my bike with ss lines, etc.

if you are maxed out of adjustment then you probably need new springs. you are not able to adjust anymore and that can be a major problem. a revalve with new springs will probably maximize the bike's ability, but I think you are definitely in need of a new spring.

 

[Steve]

What exactly does getting springs set for my weight do? I have the front maxed out with preload just to make it close to where I should be on sag.
You answered your own question, it would allow you to get where you should be on sag, not just close.

Would valving help with anything, maybe not diving when I brake or will the springs do that?

I'd try the springs first, if you are doing the work yourself, they could help enough. If you're paying someone to change the springs, go ahead and change the valving too.

 

[jas0336]

Matt Gephart;132715 wrote: It seems to be alot of money to keep replacing tires; how long do those race DOT's last?

I brake so hard now on some corners that my rear tire is intermittently in contact with the ground. How will replacing the pads and the lines help me brake harder?

What exactly does getting springs set for my weight do? I have the front maxed out with preload just to make it close to where I should be on sag. Would valving help with anything, maybe not diving when I brake or will the springs do that?

Awesome help guys, thank you alot!

Tires are the biggest recurring cost...no way around it but you can get several weekends out of a rear and more from the front. At least that is my experience from running both Michelins and Dunlops. It really depends a lot on your right hand though. In either case, DOT race tires have much better feel and grip. I haven't tried slicks yet but everyone says they are even more addictive.

As for brakes. My opinion is the late model R1s have great brakes. Obviously you can lock the wheel up with any setup. But as someone else mentioned, the feel is much better with SS lines and better pads. IMHO the stock pads are good enough to wait until they wear out but most would agree lines/pads are a huge benefit over stock in both feel and effort to control your braking.

On the springs...if you are maxed out on preload, you aren't getting the benefit of most of your forks adjustment or ability. Again, the stock components are pretty good but the springs are simply too soft for the track when you are 200+. If you get a setup for your weight, you can back off the preload and use more of your forks available travel/adjustability. I would bet you are bottoming those forks a lot, especially if you are hard on the brakes. If you are bottoming out, you risk lowsiding easier as the front will compress going into the corner and there is no more suspension while riding over track imperfections. Get the right springs and you are basically giving yourself more suspension to help with whatever situation you're in.
When I got my new R1 it felt like garbage until I swapped the springs for a linear model rated for my weight...now it feels great.

 

[Sklossmonster]

Matt,

No offense, but opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. When you post up on an open forum with a general question you're going to get a lot of opinions, some good, some bad, and a lot of in between.

Ultimately, it's up to you to decide who knows what they're talking about and then seperate those who are trying to sell you something and/or support their sponsors and those who actually have your best interest at heart.

All that being said, here's another opinion in answer to your question, and for what it's worth this one is from a guy who's been riding, racing, and instructing for 10 years, and who's left more than one job on prinicipal alone.

At a 2:40 pace at Road America you are definitely asking more of the bike than it was designed to safely give in street trim, not that you can't ride it like that, just that there's a glass ceiling above you that you're not familiar with (Sort of like driving on the highway with no seatbelt on, you can do it, it's just not smart). The better your components are and set up, the higher the ceiling is on your safety.

If your springs are fully preloaded, they are too soft. If you then you add even stiffer springs, they will blow through the already inadequate valving. At your pace, and at your weight, you would be well advised to address both springs and valves in some form or another.

Because the rear shock is not ride height adjustable, and the valving is usually totally inadequate for anyone but a slow Beginner, you should definitely buy an aftermarket shock, properly sprung for your weight.

And if you don't already know, components are useless if they're not set up properly by someone who really knows what they're doing, no matter how much they cost.

Your order of priority for upgrades to your bike can vary, depending on the bike you happen to have (it's strengths and weaknesses) and your particular needs.

Under most circumstances, I recommend upgrading the following things in the following order:

1. Tires
2. Suspension
3. Brakes
4. Controls
5. Power and delivery

This assumes that once you have been hooked you switched to track bodywork at some point, and have excellent safety gear from tip to tail.

Of course, Turn One Racing is a high performance shop where we handle all this kind of stuff, but regardless of who you choose to work with, that's the straight scoop from as straight a shooter as you're likely to find.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[ronhix]

I agree with Marshall's list and assuming the bike is reasonably setup for the rider then riding skills will make the most difference.

Keep in mind that seat time without proper training FIRST leads to perfecting mistakes.

A good school like YCRS and working intensively with the CR's are where you will make the most gains. THEN, use the seat time to perfect those skills you have been taught.

2:40 is about 25 seconds off of AMA race pace and about 20 seconds off of Expert Club racing pace PER LAP. What times do you think Hayes could throw down on your bike exactly as it is right now?

Better riding skills will make the most difference, therefore the "best bang for the buck" in my opinion.

 

[Matt Gephart]

I love it that you guys post here, makes me feel kinda special!:adore:

Yes, I want to cram in as much seat time as possible. Total track time over my NESBA carrear is about 18 hours. Compare this to my entire life of dirt bike and other 2 wheeled fun and it's a drop in the bucket.

I'm pretty sure that no matter how much time I spend on a track that my times will ever be comparable to Josh Hayes and the like. Not only have they spent 1000 times the time I have spent on a track and have an entire team supporting them, but these elite probably hold a specific skillset which I and most of the racing population can only dream about. No matter how strong I get, I'll never be able to jump as high as Michael Jordan; not because I'm white, but because it's just not in the cards for me.

And I'm fine with that all, but I do want to cut down the gap and feel good about going fast. Just this last time at road A I took a bunch of time off per lap just learning how to carry the speed through corners better, not just mash the brakes and roll on the throttle. I do feel though that there will be a point where parts of the bike will hold me back, and from the responses I'm hearing along with common sense, suspension seems to be somthing I should look into.

Just guessing, I bet Josh Hayes would be slower on my bike for sure than his latest 2:12's, but probably not by alot. Think he could beat you on your bike Mr. Hix???

Thanks for all the help and see you at the track!
-Matt

 

[ronhix]

Matt Gephart;132996 wrote: Just guessing, I bet Josh Hayes would be slower on my bike for sure than his latest 2:12's, but probably not by alot. Think he could beat you on your bike Mr. Hix???

You betcha he could Matt!

Which is exactly why I had spotters with video cameras in several corners at the AMA round watching the front runners and then watching me. I listened to what these spotters had to say and I also watched the video myself.

The funny thing is that they are not doing things that much differently, instead they are just doing almost everything a little better.

 

[Matt Gephart]

One of your spotters was my buddy Martin; dude with the long hair from Marquette Michigan. You were rippin pretty good and it's just amazing how faster people look like they are doing exactly the same thing, just a little faster like you said. The only person out there who looks different is Geoff May. He leans over so far he looks like he should be riding GP.

I ran a NESBA day a few days before the AMA races and as I know my body position needs improvment and I need to push braking a bit in corners, when you decide to move on ahead and seek out somebody else, you are gone in a shot. If I try to stick with you, you out brake me a bit, but you carry much more corner speed and exit so much faster and smoother.

I'll take your advice for the rest of the year; try to pack on as much track time as possible (next one is June 30th at road A for me) and work on skill. Maybe over the winter I could get some springs and valving to match my weight, but won't spend that money if I don't feel like I need it yet.

Maybe I will see you there and thanks for the help. Great job over last weekend; I always like watching people I kind of know as it makes it a bit more exiting to watch.

Later -matt