Why did I low-side?
- Thread starter redrdr
- Start date
This is going to be the better way of analyzing what happened. I'll work on it. Any suggestions on an easy way to do this?
The problem I have is that I live in an area where I can only get dial-up internet. The internet access at work is good, but I'm blocked from streaming media sites (youtube, etc.). If I need to post it on youtube, I'll have to wait until this weekend to do it. Any easy ways of posting a video?
I also want to say thank you to everyone out there. I always enjoy a good bike discussion.
I'll agree with the counter-steering comment on it not being the problem. Perhaps I just put the bike into too much of a lean angle. With so many variables, it is tough to tell what happened. I also want to state that I'm not shaken from the event or scared. I'll be out there again soon enough. I just don't want to have the same thing happen if it easily avoidable.
I'll always be working on my skills, so that is a given. I think some have the idea that I'm just traying to blame the tires and leave it at that. It is just tough to think that the only way to avoid this is to go slower. There has got to be some tire/suspension/mechanical contributor to this.
Another thought may be chain tension. I usually run 1.5" slack while I'm sitting on the bike. Anyone thinkthe hard turn may have cause the chain slack to be taken up and this cause the suspension to stop givng, which meant the tire gave instead. Just thinking out loud at this point.
I'll agree with the counter-steering comment on it not being the problem. Perhaps I just put the bike into too much of a lean angle. With so many variables, it is tough to tell what happened. I also want to state that I'm not shaken from the event or scared. I'll be out there again soon enough. I just don't want to have the same thing happen if it easily avoidable.
I'll always be working on my skills, so that is a given. I think some have the idea that I'm just traying to blame the tires and leave it at that. It is just tough to think that the only way to avoid this is to go slower. There has got to be some tire/suspension/mechanical contributor to this.
Another thought may be chain tension. I usually run 1.5" slack while I'm sitting on the bike. Anyone thinkthe hard turn may have cause the chain slack to be taken up and this cause the suspension to stop givng, which meant the tire gave instead. Just thinking out loud at this point.
dbarufaldi
Member
Further to that point: Freddie Spencer said he thought he had put together maybe 5 perfect laps in his whole riding life....5. And that guy has forgotten more about riding than I'll ever know. While I struggle to just get one thing right for every turn on a lap, I have to understand I have limited, but improving skills, and pretty much everything that goes wrong on the track, including crashing, is because I did something wrong or suboptimally. There is no shame in that - this is a craft and therefore something we can do our whole lives and never stop learning.
It's possible you rode beyond the limit of your equipment, but until I firmly believe no rider on the planet could have negotiated that turn at that speed with that bike in those conditions, I would look to my own skill set as the deficiency.
I assume you were after that information in your original post. Do you have what you came for?
Dan B
tittys04
Member
1.5" seems like plenty to keep from binding your suspension, I doubt it.
My advice is to listen to all of the input, accept that it was probably a mistake on your part, and work on the fundamentals. Everytime I crash, I use the cause as a way to fix something I am not great at. I lost the front in T7 at beaver once... Now I am on the throttle through there, instead of letting off because it seems too fast. I lost the rear once because I was trying to pass on the outside in T1 at Jefferson because I was focused on the other rider instead of paying attention to what I was doing, now I make sure I am aware of MY situation first. I have only ever had one crash that I couldn't figure out the cause of... and I have crashed a lot. Care to guess how many were my fault??
gkotlin
New Member
Seriously. You crashed, move on. You can analyze a video all day long. You can say, you were neutral throttle. You could have been adding throttle. As a new rider, what you think you are doing and what you are really doing are typically 2 very different things.
You say you weren't adding throttle, but you can't say after the fact. Your chain slack had nothing to do with it. You likely didn't exceed the traction of the pilot power that worked in that spot every other time that day. Your tire pressures didn't drastically change. The moon did not hick up and impart extra gravity on the earth at that moment.
Ok the the rear tire let loose first. Great. It really doesn't mean a whole lot. Unless you're running full data analysis on your bike, accept you crashed and move on. Over analyzing this is doing you no good. This game is 90% mental. If you over think this it will affect your riding for a long time. Don't ask me how I know.
What really happened is, you lost the front, the rear couldn't take the extra load, then the rear broke loose. But at a faster rate.
Or, you lost the rear, the engine spun up rpm's and it slide around on you. It was because you added throttle, or maybe because you should have and didn't.
You lost the rear, yes, you had neutral throttle. But you pegged out and leveraged the tire and lost traction.
You grabbed to much throttle while leaned over.
You rolled off the throttle and unloaded the rear tire, transferring weight forward and the rear tire lost traction.
Your on a stock shock I'm guess and after all those laps, you over heated the shock riding so hard and it didn't have proper damping to compensate from a bump.
Take your pick.
The fact is that you don't have enough experience to tell us what you and the bike were doing at the time of the crash to properly analyze the crash. I mean that in the nicest way. If you did, you wouldn't be looking for analysis on line.
There are way to many factors that could contribute to a crash. Get a good set of tires that trust. Whatever tire that may be. Put this behind you mentally. It happens. Go out and ride and have fun and get better.
If I had a dollar for every time I told someone they're weren't off the bike enough and they emphatically argued that they were, I'd be riding a new Yamaha. 1st person isn't always the best source of information.
There doesn't always have to be a reason for a crash. Or there is, but the cause isn't evident. I've seen people low side because they hit a frog. If it wasn't seen by someones eyes, who would have known why that crash happened.
Relax. Get the bike ready to ride. Get some laps with a CR. Plan on having fun and enjoying motorcycling track riding.
You say you weren't adding throttle, but you can't say after the fact. Your chain slack had nothing to do with it. You likely didn't exceed the traction of the pilot power that worked in that spot every other time that day. Your tire pressures didn't drastically change. The moon did not hick up and impart extra gravity on the earth at that moment.
Ok the the rear tire let loose first. Great. It really doesn't mean a whole lot. Unless you're running full data analysis on your bike, accept you crashed and move on. Over analyzing this is doing you no good. This game is 90% mental. If you over think this it will affect your riding for a long time. Don't ask me how I know.
What really happened is, you lost the front, the rear couldn't take the extra load, then the rear broke loose. But at a faster rate.
Or, you lost the rear, the engine spun up rpm's and it slide around on you. It was because you added throttle, or maybe because you should have and didn't.
You lost the rear, yes, you had neutral throttle. But you pegged out and leveraged the tire and lost traction.
You grabbed to much throttle while leaned over.
You rolled off the throttle and unloaded the rear tire, transferring weight forward and the rear tire lost traction.
Your on a stock shock I'm guess and after all those laps, you over heated the shock riding so hard and it didn't have proper damping to compensate from a bump.
Take your pick.
The fact is that you don't have enough experience to tell us what you and the bike were doing at the time of the crash to properly analyze the crash. I mean that in the nicest way. If you did, you wouldn't be looking for analysis on line.
There are way to many factors that could contribute to a crash. Get a good set of tires that trust. Whatever tire that may be. Put this behind you mentally. It happens. Go out and ride and have fun and get better.
If I had a dollar for every time I told someone they're weren't off the bike enough and they emphatically argued that they were, I'd be riding a new Yamaha. 1st person isn't always the best source of information.
There doesn't always have to be a reason for a crash. Or there is, but the cause isn't evident. I've seen people low side because they hit a frog. If it wasn't seen by someones eyes, who would have known why that crash happened.
Relax. Get the bike ready to ride. Get some laps with a CR. Plan on having fun and enjoying motorcycling track riding.
sobottka
New Member
gotta agree with the larger point here. although it may be fun, imho you have very little to gain from analyzing crash video. what i mean is, lets say you lost the front. will you be better at controling the front or will you have a better feeling for the front tire/grip after analyzing the video? no. you only get better from quality seat time and/or working with those who have been there/done that (cr's). crashes happen, all you need to know is that you made a mistake. keep moving forward and improving your skills.
I think gkotlin and sobottak have the right idea. I unfortunatley don't have enough data to determine what happened. It is just weird that the tire let go so quickly. The track was wet in the morning, so I was taking it easy in the first session. There was a point where the back end let go at the end of the first session. I held neutral throttle, stood the bike up a little, and went into the grass. I knew I had lost traction, and I saved it there.
The session where I crashed was #4, so the track was dry and warm at that point. I was on lap #3, so I would think the tires would be arm. I remember leaning into the curve, and then the bike went out from me quickly. It is surprising how fast it happened. I've always heard lean into the curve and have faith in your tires. I did, and I'm trying to figure out what happened.
I guess I can conclude that I don't know why I crashed. Well, if nothing else, I feel better knowing I've check the obvious possibilities for simple problems (tire pressures, chain tension, throttle response).
The session where I crashed was #4, so the track was dry and warm at that point. I was on lap #3, so I would think the tires would be arm. I remember leaning into the curve, and then the bike went out from me quickly. It is surprising how fast it happened. I've always heard lean into the curve and have faith in your tires. I did, and I'm trying to figure out what happened.
I guess I can conclude that I don't know why I crashed. Well, if nothing else, I feel better knowing I've check the obvious possibilities for simple problems (tire pressures, chain tension, throttle response).
eE jeremy
New Member
You crashed cause you don't have enough experience, it happens all the time. #1 reason for crashes
This is what has been repeated in this thread over and over and over but you still keep looking for other factors and (not suprisingly) not finding them. Stop overlooking yourself and you will find the reason you crashed and be able to move on.
This is what has been repeated in this thread over and over and over but you still keep looking for other factors and (not suprisingly) not finding them. Stop overlooking yourself and you will find the reason you crashed and be able to move on.
j_fuggin_t
Member
:agree: and also, get rid of the 1000cc bike and learn to ride on a more forgiving bike, though the newer 600's aren't very forgiving much anymore.
j_fuggin_t
Member
reading > me :doh:
stkr
New Member
I've been watching this whole thread and I agree with Jeremy 100%. The answers are right here in these EIGHT pages, but they don't seem to be the answers that you are "wanting" to hear. Sometimes the reality of our mistakes is a hard pill to swallow. Just like the cause of my crash...
Not the rider that slowed in front of me! It was my own failures.
1. Never line yourself up DIRECTLY behind someone you're working with. - Failed
2. Always have a way out if something goes wrong - Failed
3. Do NOT target fixate - Failed (I just kept watching his rear tire getting closer)
4. Don't over-brake - Failed (Braked enough to endo the bike - slowly though)
Being a newer rider, there is a LOT to learn, and a LOT of skills to build before the pace comes up. This is true no matter what pace you're starting at, whether it's the slowest person, or one of our local heros. If your pace exceeds your skill-set, then your chances of crashing increase.
Come out next year, and let us (CR's) help you gain those skills, and the knowledge you need, in order to support the pace that you want to run. If you give us the chance, and an open mind, I know we can help you out.
Meat
Member
I believe, for the most part, that if you weren't hit by another rider or had a catastrophic mechanical, then a crash is the rider's fault.
When I crashed at VIR my front tire just slid. If the tire would've stuck I wouldn't have crashed. So, I exceeded the limits of the tire......sounds like your logic here but in reality, I mis-judged my speed and line.
My front tire slid but my crash had NOTHING to do with my tires and EVERYTHING to do with riding skill. I've NEVER even considered blaming my tires. It was my error and my error alone. I even think that even though I totally mis-judged my entry speed, I think that a rider with a lot more skill than me could have still pulled the turn off.
I've always thought riders should buy the very best tires they can afford.
8+ pages of people telling you it was rider error and you are the only one that thinks it was the tires that were at fault. You really need to reevaluate your analytical thinking process.
Even though you must not realize it, there are some very experienced and skilled (I would NOT include me in that group) riders giving you advice here.
When I crashed at VIR my front tire just slid. If the tire would've stuck I wouldn't have crashed. So, I exceeded the limits of the tire......sounds like your logic here but in reality, I mis-judged my speed and line.
My front tire slid but my crash had NOTHING to do with my tires and EVERYTHING to do with riding skill. I've NEVER even considered blaming my tires. It was my error and my error alone. I even think that even though I totally mis-judged my entry speed, I think that a rider with a lot more skill than me could have still pulled the turn off.
I've always thought riders should buy the very best tires they can afford.
8+ pages of people telling you it was rider error and you are the only one that thinks it was the tires that were at fault. You really need to reevaluate your analytical thinking process.
Even though you must not realize it, there are some very experienced and skilled (I would NOT include me in that group) riders giving you advice here.
I'm skeptical on what I'm hearing. Some are jumping to conclusions pretty quickly, such as you must have given it too much throttle. I've made a lot of the errors mentioned above. So far in my track experience, I've target fixated, I've picked bad lines for a given speed, and I've felt the back end go due to loss of traction. I always try to analyze what I did wrong, so I know where to focus on not making the same error. It wasn't any of those. Rider error is too general of a cause for me. That also doesn't help me prevent the same thing from happening.
I think I just need to get the video up for everyone to see, so I'll work on it this weekend. Watching the video more and more, I'm noticing a few subtle things. It looks like the bike is stable until a certain point. I'm noticing that my outside foot comes off of the peg and my inside knee comes back almost simultaneously. The back end then brakes loose. Anyone know of a video player where you can watch in slow motion? It is starting to seem like the when my left knee came back, the necessary distance between the bike and track had to increase to accommodate my knee being out more. Obviously the track isn't going to give. This probably push my foot into the peg, and this forced the tire out and caused it loose traction. It really looks like things are fine until the outside foot comes off of the peg.
I'm surprised to see this. I have vortex rearsets, which really grip the boots extremely well. I've noticed I really have to focus on lifting my foot off of the peg to reposition my feet. They sometimes grip too much. All I can think at this point is that I'm only using the outside knee on the gas tank as my contact point in a turn. Sounds like I should focus on pushing my outside foot on the peg and push my knee into the gas tank. The outside foot slipping really seems like the first in the chain of events.
I've already done this, but it raises a good point! This is contradictory to a lot of other advice here. Many have said work on your skills rather than buy better equipment, such as better tires. Isn't getting a 600 the same as buying better tires? Shouldn't a rider work on throttle control rather than buy a less powerful bike? The less powerful bike would cover the problem as opposed to learning how to ride better.:notsure: Just stirring the pot with this one.
