Can you be TOO courteous on the track?

[Psychoholic]

Kind of an odd question, but it's something I was thinking about recently when watching some of my past videos from Road Atlanta.

I'm a upper-middle N rider - but I think that part of that is that I'm not 100% confident in my ability to pass people without a mile of lead up before I can overtake them at a reasonably faster speed. I also tend to just kind of hang behind people that look nervous and try not to crowd them even a little bit until I have the space to stay the hell away from them - the idea being that I don't want to scare them as I come by.

I'm definitely not asking if I should be a dick when I'm out there, and I'm certainly trying my best to be as safe as possible, I'm just trying to figure out how I can get more comfortable with passing people and riding at the pace I'd rather be riding at.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Chris

 

[thesnowgod]

I try to remember, its a track day not a race. There's no trophy, money or sponsorships at stake.

That said, I dont think you can be too courteous out there. Especially if the slower rider seems a little nervous or scketchy.

I'm a Novice rider and no where near even close to moving up to "I" so take my advice with that in mind.

I stay back a bit, sometimes a full lap or two and then note where I can get the pass made.

Though I will admit to constant frustration of overtaking a slower rider only to have them out motor me on the front straight and then have to have to do it all over again when the curves come and skill comes back into play. That kinda ruins a session. When that becomes an issue, I plan my entrance timing onto the track at the start of the next session to keep myself away from that rider.

 

[Psychoholic]

Though I will admit to constant frustration of overtaking a slower rider only to have them out motor me on the front straight and then have to have to do it all over again when the curves come and skill comes back into play. That kinda ruins a session. When that becomes an issue, I plan my entrance timing onto the track at the start of the next session to keep myself away from that rider.

That is actually why I got a faster bike. My CB599 wouldn't pass a moped with a JAT device strapped to it with my big ass on the back. I found myself stuck behind a couple of folks on much faster bikes but I couldn't get a clean spot to pass because they would walk me on the straights and I'd have to back off from crowding them in the turns.

I did find this, which seems to have a good discussion about it.

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/index.php?threads/good-read.28630/

 

[HondaGalToo]

I think it's important to be courteous and safe. Pass for the comfort of the rider you're passing, not necessarily your own.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[borislav]

Always remember "It is responsibility of the rider who's making the pass to make clean safe pass"

 

[D-Zum]

Judy and Bo make great points.....in my own experience, what you're experiencing is a plateau in your learning curve as a rider. Both in being hesitant to pass...and in keeping other riders on bigger bikes behind you after you've passed them. It's all mental, and it will come with more laps and more time in both cases.

Monday in New Jersey, after the bowl and before the bridge to the front straight, I saw a guy on an R6 pass a guy on a BMWS1000RR and keep the BMW behind him on the straight.

It was impressive.

 

[noupf]

Always remember "It is responsibility of the rider who's making the pass to make clean safe pass"

Always remember, "it is the responsibility of every American Citizen to use and speak with proper grammar"

Damn foreigners....

 

[borislav]

Lee... do you realy belive in what you said,in the other hand shut the fok up!

 

[Psychoholic]

Part of it probably stems from the fact that I used to have a horrific temper and as I got bigger/stronger, I realized that if I didn't back off of my anger/aggression I'd end up doing something realllllly dumb one day. So I'm a super mellow driver in traffic and immensely patient with other drivers (on the roads), so I wonder if I'm extending the same 'nah, I'm in no hurry' mentality about passing people and courtesy as I do on the streets. I'll certainly always pass within the rules of the class I'm in and will make triple sure I'm not putting myself or someone else in danger, make predictable and efficiently smooth moves when overtaking, just need to mentally be ok with passing people.

I'm really just bench racing at this point. I'm fiending to get out and try out my freshly built suspension, so I'm reviewing old video of me from Road Atlanta and trying to see areas where I can improve. I'm glad I signed up for the 2 day, so hopefully I can review some video from the first day and make adjustments immediately.

 

[Shinobi]

lololol where did this topic go wrong ; )


Kawasaki ZX6 - 2007

Mechanics-Technique
Bravery-Restraint

 

[HondaGalToo]

lololol where did this topic go wrong ; )


Kawasaki ZX6 - 2007

Mechanics-Technique
Bravery-Restraint

It's getting back on track, I hope.

Psychoholic, I like your courteous approach, but I see what you're saying. Get with a CR at RA and ask for help passing. It's about setting up the pass early so it can be executed cleanly. The passer should be there and gone, with the passee never knowing they were there, ie the person being passed did not have to adjust their line.

 

[prplppleatr239]

Everybody does things a bit differently, so you need to figure out what works best for you. That said, in all circumstances you need to make sure you keep a cool head. If for whatever reason you doubt or second guess that you can make a pass, don't do it.

Something that I found incredibly frustrating in my last few days in N was that every session seemed the same - Line up to the left at the start, do a lap or two to warm up, then hit a massive traffic jam in T1. Some people will say to roll thru hot pit to get some clear track in this case, but I found it better to learn how to work thru the traffic instead.

That starts with learning the track, and being able to do a consistent lap. Know your brake markers, gears / shift points, and turn in points. Make sure you're following the race line and using all of the track as well. Once you have this figured out and can put in consistent lap, you'll be able to tell where you're faster than somebody else. The easiest place to pass in N is on the brakes, since so many people slow down way too much before a turn. If you can take the last turn before a straight faster than the guy in front of you, back off a bit before it and give them some space. Then take the turn at your speed and close the gap, driving onto the straight faster than them. Then line up your bike a few feet to the inside of them, and make sure you hit your brake marker after they dropped their anchor.

Keep an eye out ahead for traffic jams as well. Odds are that they're caused by one or more slower riders that are new to the track. Give them some extra space, and don't be the guy trying to pass 10 people at once and making things worse. Chill out for a bit and take your time.

The other thing that really helped me out was improving my fitness and endurance off the track. Make sure you're well fed and hydrated at the track as well. Everybody has a different theory on exercise programs, but the key is making sure you're in good enough shape to keep going in the last two sessions of the day. At that point, the fastest people in the group have been bumped, and a lot of others have called it a day already, so there's a lot less traffic. That's the best time to ask a CR to work with you, or to just enjoy some open track and have fun.

 

[Thunderace]

As a CR, I tell people that if they can't get through traffic in Novice and Intermediate, they are not ready for the next level. When I was an Intermediate rider, I was told by one CR that I need to stop relying on passing people on the straights. That I needed to be more aggressive on passing people on the brakes and on the outside of turns. For me, that really hit home. My riding completely changed after that point. I didn't wait for a straight to pass, but rather anywhere I could within the group rules. Just before I was bumped to Advanced, I passed people just about anywhere on the track. It caught the eye of the CR's and I was moved into Advanced.

Now when I say "aggressive" I don't mean close or putting anyone in danger. I am still a very courteous passer, I just have learned to jump outside my own comfort zone and get the pass done as quickly as possible. This sport is almost completely mental. In order to advance your riding skill, you will need to go past your comfort zone and for the most part scare yourself a little. You will then realize that you could have been at that level all along. Then repeat the process. Obviously, the CR's are there to help you with lines, body position, etc. But we cannot make you go faster than you are comfortable.

Only you will be able to control what you do on the bike out on track. You will make decisions that we feel are incorrect, but you will also make decisions that keep you and your fellow riders as safe as possible. Those decisions are what make or break a track day.

 

[D-Zum]

Jim mentioning the mental aspect of this sport reminds me of what Brian Johnson said at a Rider's meeting at VIR about 5 years ago (He was the original NESBA Southeast Director)...this is "High Speed Chess".

So I'd offer to you that in that statement he explains your passing problems in 3 words. You're not aware of it, but maybe you're just not thinking 3 or 4 moves ahead while you're on the track. When we say Aggressive....we mean you're 3 or 4 corners ahead of where you actually are....and planning when and where you're going to pass the slower rider..you've committed to that move..and you execute it without hesitation. This is all patience, of a different sort than what you're talking about when you're in traffic in your vehicle on the way home from work.

 

[CBRtist]

I've wondered this. I'm an über courteous and conservative rider also. I've been scolded for getting out of the way to let people pass (because I'd go off line). Mark Schellinger made a good point recently in class that "sometimes it comes down to them making a mistake". Afterwards I noticed a guy was getting too late on the gas, I followed him for two laps to be certain, then carefully lined everything up before that pass and voila! Now I think it's fun to look for "the mistake".

If only I could just pass those liter bikes. I get super sneaky, but the minute they glance over and crank it... buh-bye Wendy

 

[crash675]

Back off the bigger bikes. I had to learn that as well. You can probably carry more corner speed on a 600...so let the liter bike pull a gap then you get on the gas earlier to pass him. I use to try to stay on their rear tire and draft...didnt work lol.

Sent from my SCH-R760X using Tapatalk

 

[Psychoholic]

First - thank everyone for their input. I think it's kind of an indicator of the community that some of the same people that helped with my 'hi, I'm new here' post last year are the same ones that still give great advice to those who would seek it (Judy/Jim/Darrin specifically - you guys helped me out when I first got here).

Definitely some great stuff to think about. Lets see if I can sum up some of it fairly accurately:

• Follow the rules about passing for safety and comfort
• Always include the proper demonstrative adjective or at least the definitive article when quoting
• Don't crowd the nervous
• Grab a CR and ask them to help you with passing. A little coaching goes a long way
• Pass like a ghost in the night. You were never here, nobody saw you
• Get to know the track and where the turn in points are, watch the people you want to pass and find where they will brake early
• Push yourself a bit to grow
• Think about the turns 3 or 4 turns ahead of where you are, set up for the checkmate move and execute on it when it's right
• Only once you have found a reasonable ability to work your way through traffic will you find bump enlightenment

Anything else you guys can think of?

 

[Motofun352]

The only thing I can add is, If you have a second thought while lining up a pass, it's probably too late. It means that the pass was probably going to be sketchy and your self preservation kicked in. As you gain seat time and experience with passing you will perfect (or at least improve) on this decision making skill, but don't rush it, it takes time to mature....

 

[borislav]

The only thing I can add is, If you have a second thought while lining up a pass, it's probably too late. It means that the pass was probably going to be sketchy and your self preservation kicked in. As you gain seat time and experience with passing you will perfect (or at least improve) on this decision making skill, but don't rush it, it takes time to mature....

Totaly agree!I define passing as pulling a trigger "you do it or you don't",should I,could I,would I... too late you're dead!

 

[D-Zum]

GREAT point..if in doubt...do NOT pull the trigger and execute the pass. It's JUST not worth it.