CR Body Positioning

[Pseudolus]

I'm having a hard time digesting something I noticed at VIR this weekend so I'm hoping the veterans can help me understand what I saw. The CR's turn in late (after passing you), still hit the apex :notsure:, and then pull away from you in the turn, after having made no majorly visible shifts of their body from one side to another.

Meanwhile, I'm doing my best impression of Pedrosa to get my ass side to side, still missing the apex while feeling like my hip is going to explode, and still watching the CR gain more distance.

I get "experience" being a factor but how do the CR's look like they're almost not moving side to side, turn in late while still hitting the apex all the while increasing their speed dramatically? It seems like late turn in would mean more lean angle since I'm not seeing much body shift and then acceleration is not supposed to be added With lean angle I thought? :notsure:

Does it all boil down to quick steering/turn in and then getting on the gas quicker?

 

[Slow Steve]

You need to hook up with Lenny. He is the king of body position & foot placement. He will teach you his little dance. It truly helps.

 

[JVance]

First, we are probably not turning in late. Acceleration with lean angle, absolutely! On the gas at or before apex if possible. As far as not moving... I blame it on being old and stiff haha. The CR's may not be moving as much in B group as you would expect. The pace doesn't require it and like I said, I am old and stiff (and lazy lol). The B group is a very relaxed pace for us as it will be for you if you give yourself enough time to learn some limits and technique. And yes, it is largely experience. I have been doing this for a few years. Some people pick it up really quick. It took me a while. Depending on the specific rider we are working with, in B group we are probably around 20 seconds a lap off what we would be doing in the A group. I think the same thing about some of the other CR's, fast expert club racers and the AMA racers I have had the pleasure of riding with. I don't know how they do it!

Look me up at the NEXT VIR round. I'll be glad to ride with you and show you everything I know about riding a motorcycle, as I am sure all of the CRs would.

 

[noobinacan]

Pseudolus;275957 wrote: I'm having a hard time digesting something I noticed at VIR this weekend so I'm hoping the veterans can help me understand what I saw. The CR's turn in late (after passing you), still hit the apex :notsure:, and then pull away from you in the turn, after having made no majorly visible shifts of their body from one side to another.

Meanwhile, I'm doing my best impression of Pedrosa to get my ass side to side, still missing the apex while feeling like my hip is going to explode, and still watching the CR gain more distance.

I get "experience" being a factor but how do the CR's look like they're almost not moving side to side, turn in late while still hitting the apex all the while increasing their speed dramatically? It seems like late turn in would mean more lean angle since I'm not seeing much body shift and then acceleration is not supposed to be added With lean angle I thought? :notsure:

Does it all boil down to quick steering/turn in and then getting on the gas quicker?

There's a lot going on during corner entry and then at corner exit that you don't see even when following someone.
Whoever it was, he/she was smooth, made it look easy and hence the confusion.

For example,
approach braking marker for T1, already be off on the right before you even touch brakes.
then you trail all the way to the apex, while you put your weight on the inside peg and bar.

Then as you smoothly pickup the throttle, you're putting weight through your outside peg and pulling your inside bar as you feed gas.
You can get really hard (but smooth) on the gas between T1 and T2.

all the above you cannot think as all this is going on too fast. repeat & practice to make it part of your muscle memory so you do it more on instinct vs thinking.

thinking slows you down
Be patient and learn as it comes, without rushing yourself, nothing in this sport happens overnight

don't do anything quick/harsh/hard on your 1000 or else you will land on the moon

 

[JVance]

Oh, and since we probably not turning in late you are probably turning in early. That may cause a rider to have problems hitting the apex, depending on the corner.

 

[Ruhe52]

If I see a rider not getting off the bike and we are working together I try to get in front and exaggerate my body position for a few corners and will at times point to my hip or shoulder right before moving off. Hard to communicate out there and as John mentions we are off our pace a good bit so it is hard to mimic the same body position running a slower pace. Keys are setting body position early as you can. Ferenc we can work on this more.

Nice to meet you and your bro this past weekend finally. Enjoyed talking to you guys Sat night. See you out there.

 

[Otto Man]

Pseudolus;275957 wrote: I'm having a hard time digesting something I noticed at VIR this weekend so I'm hoping the veterans can help me understand what I saw. The CR's turn in late (after passing you), still hit the apex :notsure:, and then pull away from you in the turn, after having made no majorly visible shifts of their body from one side to another.

Meanwhile, I'm doing my best impression of Pedrosa to get my ass side to side, still missing the apex while feeling like my hip is going to explode, and still watching the CR gain more distance.

I get "experience" being a factor but how do the CR's look like they're almost not moving side to side, turn in late while still hitting the apex all the while increasing their speed dramatically? It seems like late turn in would mean more lean angle since I'm not seeing much body shift and then acceleration is not supposed to be added With lean angle I thought? :notsure:

Does it all boil down to quick steering/turn in and then getting on the gas quicker?

Quick note: I'm still light years behind the CR's. But my 2 cents anyways ('Cuz this is 'Merica, where we voice our opinions regardless of subject).

At the "B" group, and most of "I" group pace, it's at a walking pace. I believe there are some WERA/CCS Novice CR's (Maybe?), but most have already joined the white plate club. Some very fast dudes. Yes, even with the speeds you can achieve in B and I, it's still all relative. And relatively speaking, it's slow compared to the expert classes of racing. You'll notice the faster you get, the less and less they'll look back - it's the best compliment they can give to me.

 

[Ruhe52]

It's just because of all the days you have done John we know what you look like and you have amp'd up your speed we just know you are still there

 

[Ruhe52]

You'll notice the faster you get, the less and less they'll look back - it's the best compliment they can give to me.

It's just because of all the days you have done John we know what you look like and you have amp'd up your speed we just know you are still there

 

[Otto Man]

Ruhe52;275970 wrote: It's just because of all the days you have done John we know what you look like and you have amp'd up your speed we just know you are still there

I can always hang with you guys till you flip the NOS switch like they do on the Fast and the Furious.

One day I'm gonna find that switch and call you guys out on it. LOL :haha:

 

[noupf]

3 things i can tell the op from experience....

1) you are probably braking way too early. I still do in I group...
2) If you are braking early, you are probably turning in way too early. I still do too...
3) Get rid of the 1000 and get a 600 for the track ( As a noob 3 years ago, the best thing I ever did was stop using my 07' 1000rr ).

I'd wager to say that you don't get on the gas until you are about 75% of the way through a turn.....and then at that point you are simply relying on the pure acceleration ability of the 1000 to make up for the speed that you are not carrying through the turns. I know that's how i started when on my 1000. I picked up a 2006 R6 for the track and have gotten so much faster on a less powerful, more agile bike....and i still have a lot to learn. Getting better body, foot position all helps, but you just need to practice and work with the cr's.

As you get more comfortable, you will carry more speed, you will brake a little later, you will turn in later, you will hit the apex more properly, and you will get on the gas sooner.......and then its all rinse and repeat.

 

[motorkas]

Ruhe52;275967 wrote: If I see a rider not getting off the bike and we are working together I try to get in front and exaggerate my body position for a few corners and will at times point to my hip or shoulder right before moving off. Hard to communicate out there and as John mentions we are off our pace a good bit so it is hard to mimic the same body position running a slower pace. Keys are setting body position early as you can. Ferenc we can work on this more.

Nice to meet you and your bro this past weekend finally. Enjoyed talking to you guys Sat night. See you out there.

Right back at you Ruhe - really appreciated the hospitality from you guys!!!!!!!! (and LOVED the Yoshi exhaust on the "woody"!!!!!!!

 

[JRA]

A few things to mention here.

First, as Cr's we should always be trying to show good form even if we don't really need the BP to maintain the pace we a riding. If we are sitting straight up and down in the seat just because we can, then how can we expect the riders we are working with to do any different? With that said it's impossible to use my normal body position when I running 10 or 15 seconds off my Advanced group pace. Sometimes in order to demonstrate my A group body position in front of a member I'll try to ride his pace, or just slightly slower, on the approach to a turn with him/her close behind, and then just brake lightly (or whatever is needed) so that I can carry a lot of speed through the turn using a more normal BP. I'll pull away quite a bit doing this but generally the rider is close enough behind that they can see what I'm doing.

As Ruhe mentioned about exaggeration...If I'm trying to show you BP and you just aren't moving with me back there you'll often see me stand up almost fully on the pegs, then settle back down to the correct side of the bike for the turn with my butt WAY off, my knee WAY out, I'll try to carry a bit more speed through the turn and get my head WAY down, my inside shoulder WAY down. All of this a lot more than I need to carry the current pace because I want you to notice. Sometimes I wonder if with the excitement of the track some guys just have blinders on back there because when we come in I'll always ask about the above, and often the response is they didn't really notice, thought I was stretching, etc.

In regard to accelerating when leaned. You want to get back on the gas ASAP. As JV said that will normally be around the apex of a turn. If you aren't getting back on the gas what are you doing? You're either coasting or braking. If you're braking after the apex you blew it horribly, and if your coasting you still blew it horribly. You want to be on the gas, either at neutral throttle or accelerating, or on the brakes, but never coasting.

You have a certain amount of grip (traction). This differs from bike to bike, rider to rider, type of tires tires, etc. LOTS of things affect grip, and this is something we are talking about in our new Beginner group classes. Whatever amount of grip you have is partially or fully used in the processes braking, turning, or accelerating. Come to the B group classroom discussions at your next track day and listen in on this topic. Bottom line though is on a 1000 you want to get the bike turned and off the side of the tire as quickly as you can for maximum acceleration grip. This doesn't mean that you don't want to be accelerating when the bike is leaned over. You want to learn a technique that will allow you to do what I just described.


Lastly, it's possible you aren't really "seeing" what is happening when the CR in front of you is setting up for a turn. If I'm moving my body to the correct side of the bike before we even get to the brake markers, and you are moving to the side of the bike as you actually start to turn the motorcycle, I've moved my body into position maybe 300 to 500 feet before I even initiate the turn, and you did it as you initiated the turn (most new riders to the track do this). Did you notice when I did that way back there or were you back there with your eyes closed hoping you can get slowed down for the turn? When I actually got to my turn in point all I had to do was lean the bike, I didn't have to move my body because I did that 500 feet back.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

Slow Steve;275961 wrote: You need to hook up with Lenny. He is the king of body position & foot placement. He will teach you his little dance. It truly helps.

Fadi, SS is correct, get with Lenny.

Body postion is the one thing I got down (for the most part) pretty quickly. Its everthing else that I struggle with more so than BP.

However, Lennys 'dance' as it is called really helped me spend alot less energy moving from side to side from how I was taught before. It was a simple refinement that made a world of difference.

The less energy you burn up moving around on the bike can be put to good use for all the other things your attention needs on the track which leads to being mmore relaxed thus allowing the bike to do what it needs without un-nessicary input from the rider.

...and all of what John Allen said too.

BZ

 

[barry38]

As you finish one corner, you should set your body up for the next corner. If you are finishing a right turn, and the next turn is a left, as soon as the bike is straight up and down as you finish the right, move your butt to the left side of the bike. Your upper body will stay straight in a tuck. As you approach you brake marker for the left, you rise, brake, and move your upper body into the turn. The advantage to this is you will adjust your body half as many times as you would if you centered yourself at the end of each turn.

The only time I didn't do this was on a long straight, like the front straights at Summit Main, VIR, Thunderbolt, etc.

 

[Pseudolus]

JRA;275986 wrote:
Did you notice when I did that way back there or were you back there with your eyes closed hoping you can get slowed down for the turn?

JRA, I believe you hit it on the head why I am not seeing the body shifts. This is exactly what is happening! Especially when the pass is happening a little before turn in. I've just shifted but the CR has done this way back. VERY interesting. Jeff mentioned me needing to get set up sooner for Turn 1 and Turn 7 and those happened to be where I was wondering why the CRs weren't shifting around right before turn in.

Every reply had something that helped me but I don't want to list every quote because I found very useful things in ALL of them! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! :adore:

I will post some follow up questions but wanted to get a thank you out there asap!

 

[zenpixel@yahoo.com]

excellent thread

 

[jimgl3]

dude, you left off that they can do all that sh*t whilst looking back at you too.

....sorry John

 

[HondaGalToo]

Question: When do you sit in the middle of the seat? Answer: Never! Maybe a few exceptions, like the long front straight at Summit. But, as others have mentioned set up early for the turn. You shouldn't be moving off the bike as you're turning, it should be done prior to braking for the turn in on those long straights.

Also, if you have two turns in the same direction, stay off the bike to that side; don't re-center yourself after the first turn and then move off again for the second. Wasted movement that unnecessarily upsets the bike. You can sit up a bit, so that you can re-weight the inside peg for the second turn, but stay hanging off.

As you exit a turn and are getting on the gas, drop your head to the inside even further.

Two things need to happen to accelerate after a turn: you need to be able to see the exit and be able to take away lean angle.

 

[motorkas]

Hey broheim, I can't remember if I ran this by you or not but two takeways that really struck me this weekend were this: on day one, anytime I came up on somebody who was running a slower pace, I would sit straight up and coast through the turns not worrying about body positioning. What really messed me up was when I got around them and the pace picked back up, I had lost my "correct" body position. Once I realized that (by looking over the pics from Day 1), I realized that even when we're starting out the day and the pace is slower, I still have to use correct body positioning because it really affected what I "thought" was correct for the rest of day. One day 2, it didn't matter if I was running slow or (what I thought was "fast", I made sure to treat every turn like I was going through it at my "normal" pace. It really helped me alot on day 2, especially after Chris told us "push the bike away from you, don't just 'hang off'".

The second takeaway was probably my most important (until the next one. Simply, seeing that orange shirt in front of you makes most of us "lose our damn minds". It was amazing, got to work with Dennis, Peanut, Chris and Allen and it wasn't until after Chris that I realized that orange shirt made me lose my F'ing mind. Instead of focusing on my turn points, apexs and exit points, I'd fixate on the orange shirt, blow every (and I mean EVERY turn point, never locate my exit point) and blow every conceivable line in epically spectacular proportions. Then would come the headshake and the only way I could get back with them was if they rolled off. Once I figured out I was doing that, the next time I had a CR in front of me (Allen) I literally had to say outloud in my helmet "focus on the markers, not him" and then subsequently, still outloud, call out "turn point". . ."push bike away from you". . ."find exit point". . ."DONT fixate on the orange shirt". It actually helped me alot. . .everything slowed down and I was able to go faster.

To the CR's - thanks again for all the insight in this thread and at the track!!!!!!!!! I did have a question and was hoping to get some pointers on how to go about it. At the end of day two, Allen said what he really wanted to work with me on next time was entry speed and I was really happy because it's definitely an area of improvement for me. The challenge I'm having is that my primary fear is not "going in too hot" (although it is definitely one) but the fact that mid turn is where there's the most inconsistency with speed with other riders in B group. In no way am I saying "I'm the fastest rider in B group" (because I was getting passed plenty of times but most of my "moments" have been happening mid turn because of the riders in front rolling off or waiting to accelerate out the turn. The only time I really got to "push" entry speeds was when there was no one in the turn. How would you go about working on entry speed in this situation? Right now, I'm leaning towards the following as possible strategies and would love any additional ideas (or to see if I'm on the right track). . .

Plan 1 - forget about stringing together the whole track and solely concentrate on entry speed of specific turns - if it gets bunched up, pit in to get a clear track, and if I'm out on track and it get's bunched up, throttle back to create space and then progressive work on building up the speed until I can pit in again.

Plan 2 - line up early so I can get to the front (although I was told that those who do this are looking to get evaluated and I would be doing just to get a clear track for as long as possible)

Plan 3 - Stay out on track, pick two turns, only work on those turns - forget about everything else.

Oh, and I totally forgot - if you think it's bad that their sitting up through the turn with you, I'll send you a pic where Dave is totally "posterizing/photobombing" me at Summit (turn 6 I believe.