Lap timers no more???

[tiggen]

HondaGal, I understand your argument that a new rider's attention should not be focused on lap times. However, a lap time is like a quiz grade in school. It is an objective quantification (is that a word?) of progress, i.e. feedback. It lets the learner konw where he/she stands. It lets them know that what they have been working on is indeed helping them get better. Without it, they don't know. If their lap times aren't improving, then they need to talk to CR's about what they are doing and find new things to work on or new way to conceptualize their riding.

Also, I think this kind of access to lap times is a function of safey as well. Having lap times for everybody would help ensure that riders are in the correct group and help to clearly deliniate the boundaries between them. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT LAP TIMES ARE THE ONLY PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT SHOULD BE USED IN DETERMINING ONE'S CLASSIFICATION. A CR's opinion about a rider's consistency, ability to hold lines, on track behavior, etc. would still be an integral part of getting bumped.

 

[rk97]

a tangible measure of improvement is certainly desirable - no argument there. I think the CR's do an excellent job of giving praise along with instruction, which is about as close as you can get to "tangible improvement" without a lap timer. I know a thumbs up from a CR when they look back, and I'm still on his/her wheel after 4-5 turns always makes me smile.

But I disagree that CR's would benefit much from looking at lap times in each group. If someone is in the wrong group, I can't believe you'd need to see their lap time to spot them. And a timer doesn't tell you very much at all; just how long a lap takes you. If you're ripping through turns 1-7, but blowing 8-11, the timer doesn't point that out. CR's and corner workers do. Lap times couldn't hurt their evaluation - i just don't think they would help very much either.

now if you put GPS transmitters in everyone's bike... :wow:

 

[HondaGalToo]

I get what you're saying, Tiggen, and agree that a lap timer is a good tool to measure performance, but I still believe it isn't necessary (and even detrimental) for a first time track rider. The CRs repeatedly have said that being bumped up has less to do with lap times than other skills, such as good lines, smoothness, etc. I agree with rk97 that the CRs wouldn't really benefit from seeing all of a person's/group's lap times. When I ask a CR what to work on, I don't recall there ever being much, if any, discussion on what my lap times were. I do have a timer, and it is a good measure of how I'm improving, but I've been doing this for a lot of years. I still think a timer has no business being on a first-timer's bike. Maybe after a few days, but not the first. It's all they'll focus on. That's my opinion, yours is different and that's fine.

I also disagree that laptimes are an objective quantification, to a degree. Someone can be fast, having better laptimes than another rider, but it can be at the expense of out-of-control, on the verge of crashing style riding.

Personally, I have no interest in an org recording and posting my times.

 

[mlmoore]

HondaGalToo;44201 wrote: When I talked to my State Farm agent recently, they said they will still cover a trackday. As long as it's not a timed, competetive event, I'm covered.

Most companies say the same thing. "as long as it is not a Timed, competitive event". This applies to both MC and life/disability. Check your own policy as every company is unique. I've hear some auto policies may be changing to exclude any event held on a "race track". Not confirmed.

IMHO I don't want NESBA or any track day org to provide official timing. Once they do you only have one point left to argue since it will be a "timed event". It can only make it more difficult for dealing with Medical Claims.

Timing should be done by riders not the organization. As someone said if you are really concerned about lap time the go racing.

mike

 

[dlockhart5x]

Don't have, don't want, don't need a lap timer.

I can see a place for the RFID technology in managing the event. Each rider is tagged and logged on the track and off the track. Remember it was not long ago that a rider ran off into the woods at Jennings and was lost for some time before help was sent. Sadly, it did not have a happy ending. With RFID tagging, track/event management would know something was up. This also would help prevent fraud/cheating by ID'ing the riders that belong on the track in a given session.

 

[Rick Johnson]

I got a lap timer once I got to the A group to see if I could lower times when I went back to
the same track.I use it sometimes but sometimes I don't and just go out and have fun and
work on body position,braking,etc.It's a good option to have but sometimes it can make you
push alittle harder than you are comfortable with.I didn't use it my last three TD's but will
on the Fri. practice before the races.I agree it's a good tool but don't ride over your head
trying to get your best lap time.I made that mistake once and did some pretty good damage
to my bike but luckily not myself.So go out and have fun and ride smart.

 

[crewnutz]

didnt expect my thread to get this much response


i can see everyones arguments about the org timing the event causing problems w/ insurance claims.........so i concede to that

as far as lap timers being good for progressing your skills...........i believe once you hit A group they are essential for improving your skills & they offer a kind of "reward" to a rider for their efforts in the form of a good lap time at X track......i very much disagree when someone says "if you want your lap times you should go race".......

IMO racing is less about lap times than any type of practice (racing practice or trackdays)
when you race, you push to the point that you need to push in order to finish in your desired position (you just have to be realistic about that desired position).........you ride as fast as you need to in order to reach your desired realistic result

racing practice and even trackdays are in my eyes more like Superpole in WSBK........its about pushing your limits and seeing what you and your bike are capable of........you might go out and try something new but you cant know if it really helped you unless you show improvement in your lap times

i do agree that riders have more to worry about in B & I group than laptimes but once youre in A group youve proven that you have the abilities to ride well, safe, smooth.........the next part is to go fast

 

[nrcooled]

ftlbs;44177 wrote: Which companies still do this? I thought they were all pretty much wise to the track day thing. If the accident/damage occurs at a racing facility, you are on your own for vehicle and health care benefits that might have been covered on the street.

My insurance won't cover anything that takes place on a "racing surface". Hence the reason why I'm only covered for "Acts of God" and theft.

 

[Landshark]

crewnutz;44269 wrote: didnt expect my thread to get this much response


i can see everyones arguments about the org timing the event causing problems w/ insurance claims.........so i concede to that

as far as lap timers being good for progressing your skills...........i believe once you hit A group they are essential for improving your skills & they offer a kind of "reward" to a rider for their efforts in the form of a good lap time at X track......i very much disagree when someone says "if you want your lap times you should go race".......

IMO racing is less about lap times than any type of practice (racing practice or trackdays)
when you race, you push to the point that you need to push in order to finish in your desired position (you just have to be realistic about that desired position).........you ride as fast as you need to in order to reach your desired realistic result

racing practice and even trackdays are in my eyes more like Superpole in WSBK........its about pushing your limits and seeing what you and your bike are capable of........you might go out and try something new but you cant know if it really helped you unless you show improvement in your lap times

i do agree that riders have more to worry about in B & I group than laptimes but once youre in A group youve proven that you have the abilities to ride well, safe, smooth.........the next part is to go fast

I agree. My times are a reflection of my ability to maintain consistency each and every lap. As I make adjustments personally or to the machine I like to have a start point, high point and work to make the spread as small as possible. I use mine as an aid not a motivator.
Racing is all about finishing first without killing anyone in that attempt. Never been in a race where I cared one bit about a lap time.
However I can say I have been sucked into the racing the clock at a trackday. I got away with that for a few times and eventually paid up. I can say for certain I should have never looked.
I believe the insurance thing goes a bit deeper than just the participants coverage. The organizer has different coverage for Trackday liability and Raceday coverage. You start recording times and you may be looked upon as creating a competitive environment rather than an instructional or club event.

 

[crewnutz]

Landshark;44287 wrote: I agree. My times are a reflection of my ability to maintain consistency each and every lap. As I make adjustments personally or to the machine I like to have a start point, high point and work to make the spread as small as possible. I use mine as an aid not a motivator.
Racing is all about finishing first without killing anyone in that attempt. Never been in a race where I cared one bit about a lap time.
However I can say I have been sucked into the racing the clock at a trackday. I got away with that for a few times and eventually paid up. I can say for certain I should have never looked.
I believe the insurance thing goes a bit deeper than just the participants coverage. The organizer has different coverage for Trackday liability and Raceday coverage. You start recording times and you may be looked upon as creating a competitive environment rather than an instructional or club event.

more good points...........

 

[Lars]

crewnutz;44293 wrote: more good points...........

I agree that lap timers can be used wrong, but I don’t want B and I guys to feel ashamed using them. I also agree to focus on skills and not lap times, BUT skills reflect in your lap times. It is just a gauge to me, which helps the motivation and not a wish of go racing.
I spend a lot of energy between track days on how I can improve my riding and what it would do for my. Trying out my thoughts and see them pay of on the lap times is just a major feeling of accomplishment too me.
Why look at a lap timer, as it was something an evil spirit invented just because it is used my a B or I rider!?
Some has talent to bring it all the way to A without and some needs a little help to get a little way.

Cu all
Lars

 

[rk97]

dlockhart5x;44246 wrote: it was not long ago that a rider ran off into the woods at Jennings and was lost for some time before help was sent. Sadly, it did not have a happy ending. With RFID tagging, track/event management would know something was up.

it'd be great if that was really the case, but if a rider pits out, their transponder stops registering laps too... I'm not so sure that's a legitimate advantage unless the org is really using GPS to track each bike.

 

[tiggen]

Zoomius website.

 

[hank]

I have done a lot of work with RFID systems... primarily for document management and IT hardware management. It is excellent technology that is already in use all around us.

I was impressed by the application for track days but then again, every NASCR tire has an RFID chip and IIRC, so do all MotoGP tires...

Where this would be useful is in keeping track of what bikes enter the track each session and what bikes leave. It can be used to keep track of any bikes entering that aren't supposed to be out during that particular session and keep track of what bikes have passed tech - if it didn't pass tech, it will register as an unauthorized bike entering the track.

Also can be used to track people who crash as well as keep a record of people when they are reckless/aggressive to the point that they need a talking to... It can really help the club manage the grid and the quality of the riders if used properly - that should lead to an overall safer experience and therefore lower the costs for everyone as well as provide more track time.

TBH, the club will get more out of it than the riders - there is no need to even post any rider's lap times - unless they specifically request it (and/or are willing to pay a bit for it).

FWIW - the stickers that clubs currently put on bikes to designate the group level can be replaced with an RFID-enabled sticker and be used all season without most people even knowing...

 

[sternsi]

.............

 

[barry38]

hank;44331 wrote: I have done a lot of work with RFID systems... primarily for document management and IT hardware management. It is excellent technology that is already in use all around us.

I was impressed by the application for track days but then again, every NASCR tire has an RFID chip and IIRC, so do all MotoGP tires...

Where this would be useful is in keeping track of what bikes enter the track each session and what bikes leave. It can be used to keep track of any bikes entering that aren't supposed to be out during that particular session and keep track of what bikes have passed tech - if it didn't pass tech, it will register as an unauthorized bike entering the track.

Also can be used to track people who crash as well as keep a record of people when they are reckless/aggressive to the point that they need a talking to... It can really help the club manage the grid and the quality of the riders if used properly - that should lead to an overall safer experience and therefore lower the costs for everyone as well as provide more track time.

TBH, the club will get more out of it than the riders - there is no need to even post any rider's lap times - unless they specifically request it (and/or are willing to pay a bit for it).

FWIW - the stickers that clubs currently put on bikes to designate the group level can be replaced with an RFID-enabled sticker and be used all season without most people even knowing...

I know I'm old and distrustful of anything new, but that all seems very big brotherish to me

 

[Landshark]

RFID for documents is a waste. Container and location applications are better suited to the technology. Costs would not give the ORG enough Return On Investment. That Decal as you know has every to do with how well the system works and is limited by the frequency of the chip and the placement of the tag (passive system).
An active system is the only reusable solution with enough rangeand durability, although it still has placement limitations to be considered. Once again the coast is prohibitive for what is actually gained once you add the man hours to monitor setup and maintain the system.

 

[EngineNoO9]

HondaGalToo;44202 wrote: Actually, I think that would be a huge mistake for a new track rider. The last thing they should be focusing on when learning is laptimes. Just my opinion. There's better things to work on, and the by-product will eventually be lower laptimes.

I agree. I crashed the first trackday that I had a lap timer on my bike. Granted I was getting frustrated for other reasons as well as every session there had been a red flag that day... The timer didn't help though. I put it in a location where I can't see the timer now and look back at it later to see any improvements or consistency.

 

[ta2kutz]

i put my timer on the tail of my bike so i cant see the time till im off track at the end.......no need to try to see it during a session then go trying to beat it. id rather go by feel if a session feels real smooth then i see the times were down i say .......good job me!

 

[Billsv/R6]

i 100%agree with LARS. and laugh my but off at dale.b how would we lie. i'm sure my times are a joke to motogp and other guys thats why i do track days if i could run those times i'd be out there trading paint and picking up umbrella girls. when i,m on the track i feel like a hero/rockstar. good times. can hardly wait to ride with ya all. we all have diffrent ideas and opinion that's what makes America great