Pleasing the masses

f3racer

Member
I feel for CR's and Orgs like N2. Its amazing watching people on social media make negative comments. They get the most attention and rarely do you see the good comments until someone posts a negative one.

Just having a conversation with a guy who absolutely takes every effort to bash N2 every time someone gives a negative review of their experience with a track day org. It seems he was ultimately upset that he had to start in Novice group, was bumped to intermediate, and never received the bump to Advanced.
He isn't a licensed racer, but consistently mention that he was always the fastest guy in I group and ran "race pace". The control riders "couldn't catch" him.

I tried to explain that the fastest lap times aren't the whole equation, and that consistency, predictability, and how you take instruction are bigger parts of the picture. Many people try to give this guy some insight and he just doesn't listen.

I know there are bad apples in every org but I have been lucky that in the 23 years I have been doing track days and race schools I've only met a small few.
So hats off to you CR's who deal with people like this.
 

bmart

Control Rider
Nice post, Will. I've had many conversations about "the bump" over the years...including this year. It is hard to dispell that pace, or pace on a specific bike, is the key component. Humans tend to operate under the idea of confirmation bias and find people who agree with them.

Participants are generally open, which is great. You remind me of my buddy Nick, who was the best person I've ever coached. He's far beyond my skills now, but he listened to every coach and implemented. He genuinely wanted the criticism, and to alter his riding. It paid dividends in spades.

A long standing joke from the NESBA days is "The coaches are slowing me down!"

(Free bonus joke: I once had a guy who didn't want any input leave a track day after telling the org that the track was broken. I'm not kidding.)

Hope to see you out there. Come say hi!
 

f3racer

Member
I couldn't imagine being told that the track was broken. I would probably die laughing.

I try to pick the brain of every coach and better rider that I can. I crave being able to survive riding a bike every day, and be able to pass this passion on to my grand daughters safely. I know everything I learn on the track will carry over the what I do on the street and track.

I'm a motorcycle safety program manager for the US Army and I spend a ton of time with young testosterone filled Soldiers on bikes that think they are better riders than they actually are. I plagiarize the shit out of every coach i've had just to try and help them be safer more efficient riders. One of my sayings is "joe is going to do stupid shit and take unnecessary risks on his bike no matter what, so instead of yelling and screaming at them, lets teach them to survive the amount of risk they take" I absolutely love my job.

For some people this is a hobby. Its my life.
 

tdelegram

Control Rider
I feel for CR's and Orgs like N2. Its amazing watching people on social media make negative comments. They get the most attention and rarely do you see the good comments until someone posts a negative one.

Just having a conversation with a guy who absolutely takes every effort to bash N2 every time someone gives a negative review of their experience with a track day org. It seems he was ultimately upset that he had to start in Novice group, was bumped to intermediate, and never received the bump to Advanced.
He isn't a licensed racer, but consistently mention that he was always the fastest guy in I group and ran "race pace". The control riders "couldn't catch" him.

I tried to explain that the fastest lap times aren't the whole equation, and that consistency, predictability, and how you take instruction are bigger parts of the picture. Many people try to give this guy some insight and he just doesn't listen.

I know there are bad apples in every org but I have been lucky that in the 23 years I have been doing track days and race schools I've only met a small few.
So hats off to you CR's who deal with people like this.
I know who you're referring too, he couldn't keep up with me on my SV650 and he's on an r1. His pace is not race pace and he had many excuses during the day as to why he couldn't do things. I'll be the first to admit I am not the fastest rider or coach for that matter, nor am I the slowest, but I am, as are all the coaches who volunteer, trying to help people become faster and safer. This is a sport that having an ego can hurt you and it turns people off too. I appreciate the kind words, look me up at the next event happy to talk more live.
 

f3racer

Member
I know who you're referring too, he couldn't keep up with me on my SV650 and he's on an r1. His pace is not race pace and he had many excuses during the day as to why he couldn't do things. I'll be the first to admit I am not the fastest rider or coach for that matter, nor am I the slowest, but I am, as are all the coaches who volunteer, trying to help people become faster and safer. This is a sport that having an ego can hurt you and it turns people off too. I appreciate the kind words, look me up at the next event happy to talk more live.
It sucks people have to be like that.
 

rpm894

Member
I feel for CR's and Orgs like N2. Its amazing watching people on social media make negative comments. They get the most attention and rarely do you see the good comments until someone posts a negative one.

Just having a conversation with a guy who absolutely takes every effort to bash N2 every time someone gives a negative review of their experience with a track day org. It seems he was ultimately upset that he had to start in Novice group, was bumped to intermediate, and never received the bump to Advanced.
He isn't a licensed racer, but consistently mention that he was always the fastest guy in I group and ran "race pace". The control riders "couldn't catch" him.

I tried to explain that the fastest lap times aren't the whole equation, and that consistency, predictability, and how you take instruction are bigger parts of the picture. Many people try to give this guy some insight and he just doesn't listen.

I know there are bad apples in every org but I have been lucky that in the 23 years I have been doing track days and race schools I've only met a small few.
So hats off to you CR's who deal with people like this.
Is this the guy with a video on YouTube at NJMP?

I'm always talking about lap times, but I swear I'm not this guy!
 

rob92

Control Rider
N2
Thanks for the feedback, Will. Honestly, people who behave like this are a "rounding error" compared to those that come to the track eager to learn and just have fun - and that is what makes it all worthwhile. We pay zero attention to people like this, and the internet/community has a way of burning these people down without lifting a finger. If anyone has an issue, our staff does whatever they can to help make their day better.
 

MK3Brent

Treebeard
people who behave like this are a "rounding error"
I'm stealing this quote... It's so accurate.

You know, at every TD during the rider meetings the coaches say "If you're having problems, come see us. We can't fix anything come Monday when you're flaming us."

I had no idea what the hell you guys were talking about, but now after seeing this post I think I get it. I've been facebook free for about 5 years, and it's genuinely improved my life. Sad to think people have nothing better to do than complain.
 

meanstrk

Control Rider
Those guys make up every excuse they can to make themselves look better. What they fail to realize is that every single person sees right through the charade and is laughing about them behind their backs, or to their faces on many occasions. We have all seen it and to be honest, we won’t miss them if they don’t come back. I can promise you that if one of our CR’s can’t keep up with someone AND they are riding in a respectable manner, they are going to get the proper attention. I can also pretty much promise that the vast majority of N2 CR’s have vast race credentials with results to back it up, and you won’t really find someone in I group that CR’s will have a difficult time with. We appreciate the kind words, and hope you continue to spread the N2 gospel among the community. We do this for the love of the sport, and truly enjoy seeing those that pay attention progress in the ranks.
 

virtualsolitude

Musician, physician but mostly fond of fishin'.
Those guys make up every excuse they can to make themselves look better. What they fail to realize is that every single person sees right through the charade and is laughing about them behind their backs, or to their faces on many occasions. We have all seen it and to be honest, we won’t miss them if they don’t come back. I can promise you that if one of our CR’s can’t keep up with someone AND they are riding in a respectable manner, they are going to get the proper attention. I can also pretty much promise that the vast majority of N2 CR’s have vast race credentials with results to back it up, and you won’t really find someone in I group that CR’s will have a difficult time with. We appreciate the kind words, and hope you continue to spread the N2 gospel among the community. We do this for the love of the sport, and truly enjoy seeing those that pay attention progress in the ranks.

Good post here. As a guest coach at various orgs, I agree with this post esp these two comments you made:
Those guys make up every excuse they can to make themselves look better. What they fail to realize is that every single person sees right through the charade
Yet still we try to coach them, sometimes week in and week out.

you won’t really find someone in I group that CR’s will have a difficult time with
I use a 400 at the smaller tracks for intermediates and, for beginners, the 400 is more than enough bike to show when someone is being 'big bike fast'.

Most track day riders do not realize that (or lose sight of the fact that):
- the coaching they receive is an added bonus that is FREE for the asking but more often unsolicited. It's also mostly personalized
- coaching is an all-volunteer, unpaid gig
- coaches want to see riders improve and get great satisfaction from it
- coaches do get to ride for free at track days but coaches incur more bike and travel expenses to do so
 
And sure, teaching hones your craft, but you're also sacrificing the majority of the time you DO get on track to go slow AF with us novices and coach, so thanks for that too.

This.

CRs have to work a lot harder than it would appear. Proper body position at slow speeds, tripping the brake light without additional drag to show brakes past tip-in (while already slow), adapting communication style to fit the learning style of the rider, etc.

Good CRs deserve every bit of that “free” track day.
 
Faceb
I'm stealing this quote... It's so accurate.

You know, at every TD during the rider meetings the coaches say "If you're having problems, come see us. We can't fix anything come Monday when you're flaming us."

I had no idea what the hell you guys were talking about, but now after seeing this post I think I get it. I've been facebook free for about 5 years, and it's genuinely improved my life. Sad to think people have nothing better to do than complain.
“Facebook Free”…I love it !! That would make a great bumper sticker. One day soon it will have the same significance as a guy that proudly says he’s sober or drug free for 5 yrs
 

virtualsolitude

Musician, physician but mostly fond of fishin'.
I was doing a search (for something entirely unrelated to this post) and this thread came up. It's a good read still.

It's got me thinking and, now, I gotta write out my thoughts, add more to this discussion:

Before I got my A bump (in 2022), I was a long-time "I" rider. In fact, I got the bump to Intermediate back with the NESBA days (within a few months of being Novice). And, I recall thinking that the A bump was gonna come "any time now". :)

It didn't. For years, it did not come. I wanted the A bump but I saw riders in that group who were wicked fast. Also, I kept getting humbled by not only the faster "I" riders but also newly-bumped "I" riders who showed better progress than I did. And I couldn't keep up with any of them. It did get frustrating when: a) I would observe these faster "I" riders get the bump, and b) even when I got the "attention" I wanted (I was never ignored by the way), the lesson I was shown didn't help me progress enough.

I never vented loudly or blamed the coaches but I did wonder, sometimes, if it was me or if it was the "chemistry" between me and the coach. I say "chemistry" because teaching and learning styles vary among coaches and students. Follow what I'm saying?

Anyhow, fast forward to the N2 days in 2020 (and that is a LONG fast-forward), I started getting noticeably faster but only in some aspects of my riding. So, I was ignoring the deficient areas and using my strengths to keep up with or pass larger bikes. Me, on my 20yo 600, "racing" against liter bikes at track days. That was my focus and I thought having a "carrot" would help me progress. Because, when I start to pull liter bikes on the straight, then, hey, I must be doing things right, because I'm faster than a liter bike, right?

I also started crashing more in 2020 and into 2021. In hindsight, it was the same type of crashes. I need not detail them other than that (now) I understand why. Still, I ended 2021 on a good note. I felt some things had 'clicked' and thought 2022 was gonna start with a bang.

It did. On the pavement. I was frustrated. 3 track days later. I was back to my 2021 form. Or should I say "stuck" in my 2021 form?

I was good on setting up passing, corner exit speed and, thus, good speed into the chutes and straights. Brake zones, body position, vision, setting up for corners (1-3 turns ahead) were not always good. Reference points were inconsistent. Or actually bad. Some of these deficiencies I knew all along. Others I realized in hindsight now. I never dragged a knee prior to 2022. For some, that's a litmus test. For me, it was just bad body position. Elbows in, body crossed up and knee barely out. Coaches were always pointing that out to me. There's that phrase: "coaches were always..." That should've told me something because I was hearing that a lot on many things.

So, one track day, I talked to a guy named Emerson who was pitted near me. We all know him. I asked how to work down to later braking markers without crashing. I was a grab-and-stab-the-brakes kind of rider. Fork dive. Body weight fully on the upper shoulders and arms. And waiting for the bike to slow down and settle before ever daring to tip in.

So, this guy, Emerson, tells me to "brake less". I thought he was joking. But he was serious. I felt I was giving my braking all I had. HOW DO YOU brake less in a situation like that? Is this guy trying to get me to crash again? I honestly thought it was "dumb" advice and I was disappointed to hear it. It was not the magic nugget I expected. Confirmation bias right there.

But, I knew who Emerson was, I know his people and his racing/wrenching credentials. After he explained how to transition from brake to gas, squeeze and bite the brakes, then apply fully, I tried it starting from brake marker "5.5" (to be safe and ensure that I wouldn't kill myself). I found i slowed down way too much.

Long story short (and this post has not been anything but a long story, haha), I was able to quickly get down to brake marker 4. I couldn't believe it. I was happy though. And -- and this is important -- it felt slow. I felt my entry speed at tip-in was too slow. Actually, what I found was that I was able to slow everything down: my fork dive, my thinking, my breathing. I was relaxed and I found myself modulating the brake to lessen my braking and achieve higher tip-in speed. Trailbraking, obviously, got much less risking.

It was a great discovery. A great learning moment for me. And I only asked for advice because I was stuck. And I knew I was stuck. I knew I needed to do something different since I had tried all that I knew up to that moment. I knew I risked starting the season off with more crashing and, ugh, more bike part orders and repairs.

Going forward, over the year 2022, I asked other coaches for specific advice: how's my braking, my lines, my speed. I did get advice that I thought was going to "kill me". But I kept an open mind.

I was not a difficult person, not a head-butting type of non-listener nor was I ignorant to the fact that I had things to work on. But I ignored a lot of advice if I didn't understand it. I think I had kind of an introverted ego because, honestly, as long as I was faster than my friends... That may be familiar to some of you; you probably know what I mean saying that.

In 2022, I got bumped to the A group in two different orgs without asking. On my 600 still. I actually didn't want it because I wasn't sure. I was worried and didn't want to embarrass myself. But after half a year running in A, getting advice from the awesome A-coaches and equally friendly A riders showing me things on/off the track, it has really, really pushed me.

I still reflect on how long it took to get to this point. How, after years of not listening, that just a few months of being stuck and frustrated, changed my receptiveness to listening to advice (solicited and unsolicited) and honestly applying it EVEN when I didn't understand the advice I was given or thought it didn't make sense. I attribute that to the day Emerson gave me that first piece of advice about 'braking less'. I still laugh about how crazy I thought his advice was. Yet it changed my thinking and kickstarted my growth that year.

So now I put faith into coaching advice even though I'm not fully sure or understanding of the advice. Sometimes I'm not even trusting of it. I just believe and apply it.

I can say, now, whenever I coach, sometimes that's all I want for my students to do. Trust. Have faith. Listen. Apply.

And, of course, have fun!
 
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