When you think you're Fast

[Kurt_Orban]

You've hit the nail on the head, Kurt. Many new riders come to the track with equipment that far exceeds their skill level. I recently spoke to one who was going to add about $7k to his bike to get it "track ready." Electronics, top notch suspension, bars, rear sets, etc. That money would be far better spent (unless you happen to have sacks of $20s hanging around, of course!) on training, seat time, and tires.

I get that folks like the tech and to have nice equipment, but when I see a track day newbie on a Panigale with $200 Cycle Gear leathers on...I get worried. Besides, it is much more satisfying to go fast on a slow bike! There is a thrill that comes with passing a litre bike while on a smaller displacement bike, in any class.

I'm glad I give you all the thrills lol, I'm definitely getting passed by smaller bikes. But last year on my Sport1000 with 80HP, I definitely should have stayed with a smaller bike. But for now, running the S1K detuned and in Rain Mode, forces me to ring it out a lot more. So glad it has that mode.

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[meanstrk]

I was at Road Atlanta one year and a bunch of the AMA guys were using the track day as practice and we had a novice accidentally get on the track with them. He came in pretty quickly after being strafed in damn near every corner and packed up. It scared him that badly! It is quite humbling when you are on track with true talent!

 

[Kurt_Orban]

I was at Road Atlanta one year and a bunch of the AMA guys were using the track day as practice and we had a novice accidentally get on the track with them. He came in pretty quickly after being strafed in damn near every corner and packed up. It scared him that badly! It is quite humbling when you are on track with true talent!

I bet yes still talking about it to this day lol

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[britx303]

Out of curiosity,do you guys use lap timers at TD's to compare your times to race times? Monday was my first TD in a few years now,and it was just to test out an experimental engine and shake off some cobwebs,so I definatly wasnt concerned with "time". What do any of yall that only do TDs use as a reference point?

 

[D-Zum]

I define my reference point as my best lap at a track.

I hope to beat that time as a measure of my progress as a rider.

I also use that best lap as a mark for my collection of times for each session. The more consistent I am in riding laps the happier I am.

That being said. My lap timer wasn’t on my bike all last year and I believe it was one of my best years in a very long time.

I had fun. That’s the best lap time of all.

 

[Kurt_Orban]

Out of curiosity,do you guys use lap timers at TD's to compare your times to race times? Monday was my first TD in a few years now,and it was just to test out an experimental engine and shake off some cobwebs,so I definatly wasnt concerned with "time". What do any of yall that only do TDs use as a reference point?

I have an AIM solo2 lap timer but the battery died halfway through the day. That's really the best way to determine how your doing once you establish good lines and take care of the rest. It'll track yo7r segments and turns and tell you where you're losing time on the track. A friend of mine, Nick, beat that into my head and I'm a believer now. I used to think it was too fancy and complicated l, but it's really the way to do it.

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[chrisplm]

I personally use a lap timer, but I by no means live by it. It can be a great tool to measure improvements and help you focus on what your doing right.
It's also a great tool to show you what your doing wrong. i.e. You go out for a session and you are really pushing it, really chasing that great lap time, really hammering and twisting the throttle everywhere, you come in all sweaty and beat up, look down at the timer expecting to see a time that would make Marc Marquez blush, only to see it's one of your slower times of the day!! A great way to learn that smooth is fast, erratic is not!
That being said, some of my most fun (and fastest....in my head)days, were days I never even looked at it!

 

[Kurt_Orban]

I personally use a lap timer, but I by no means live by it. It can be a great tool to measure improvements and help you focus on what your doing right.
It's also a great tool to show you what your doing wrong. i.e. You go out for a session and you are really pushing it, really chasing that great lap time, really hammering and twisting the throttle everywhere, you come in all sweaty and beat up, look down at the timer expecting to see a time that would make Marc Marquez blush, only to see it's one of your slower times of the day!! A great way to learn that smooth is fast, erratic is not!
That being said, some of my most fun (and fastest....in my head)days, were days I never even looked at it!

Very true. I'm not that experienced at all, but I definitely can tell when I have a smooth lap and I'm not jamming on the throttle and wrestling with the bike, my times are much better. I don't need a lap timer for that, but it helps a great deal in showing you the stark difference between the two. Once I realized that, I feel that it put me in the right mindset.

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[wmhjr]

Particularly if you're just talking about track days and not racing, I think lap times are a hindrance for Novice riders, and only really helpful for the most advanced Intermediate riders. Put the A group aside for a moment. For Novice in particular, there is nothing you're going to get from a lap timer that is remotely as valuable as focusing on lines, body position, smooth inputs, and setting up people for passing. The same really holds true for the overwhelming majority of the I group IMHO. I for one pay zero attention to what the lap time is in deciding that somebody is ready for a bump from N to I. Conversely, focusing on that lap timer can also mean that you're concentrating on just how fast you can go - not how well you're riding. Rarely does a Novice rider focusing on a lap time really think about body position. If you have good body position, good lines, smooth inputs, brake throttle control and good transitions, your lap times will reflect that. If you're a Novice and drop a second off of your last lap, it doesn't mean that you rode well. You may have just ridden even closer to the edge of disaster. If it were up to me, I'd outlaw the damn things in N group. Lap timers can create exactly the wrong behavior and riding technique in N - and to some extent in I.

In the I group, lap timers can be helpful as you're getting ready to move to A group. You can have great BP, lines, and be smooth, but just not be carrying enough speed to be in with the fast guys. So once you've really built a foundation of the basics, a lap timer can be a good tool.

That being said - particularly in the N and I groups, you don't need a lap timer to know when you're riding well. If you're smooth, and you're passing everything you can see - then you're getting closer and doing things better. Chris is right - it's a tool. Not the only tool, or even the most important tool. And like any tool you can use it wrong.

 

[mpusch]

I have a beacon based laptimer, but I don't usually run it. However, I do have a GoPro running just about all the time. After the weekend is over, I sit down and watch every session on my laptop to review myself and see the laptimes. It's obviously not accurate to the tenth of a second, but it's close enough. I figure this way I'm not scrutinizing over my times when I'm actually out on the track.

The GoPro has an added bonus of letting you know what actually happened after you "come to" in the hospital.

 

[Kurt_Orban]

Particularly if you're just talking about track days and not racing, I think lap times are a hindrance for Novice riders, and only really helpful for the most advanced Intermediate riders. Put the A group aside for a moment. For Novice in particular, there is nothing you're going to get from a lap timer that is remotely as valuable as focusing on lines, body position, smooth inputs, and setting up people for passing. The same really holds true for the overwhelming majority of the I group IMHO. I for one pay zero attention to what the lap time is in deciding that somebody is ready for a bump from N to I. Conversely, focusing on that lap timer can also mean that you're concentrating on just how fast you can go - not how well you're riding. Rarely does a Novice rider focusing on a lap time really think about body position. If you have good body position, good lines, smooth inputs, brake throttle control and good transitions, your lap times will reflect that. If you're a Novice and drop a second off of your last lap, it doesn't mean that you rode well. You may have just ridden even closer to the edge of disaster. If it were up to me, I'd outlaw the damn things in N group. Lap timers can create exactly the wrong behavior and riding technique in N - and to some extent in I.

In the I group, lap timers can be helpful as you're getting ready to move to A group. You can have great BP, lines, and be smooth, but just not be carrying enough speed to be in with the fast guys. So once you've really built a foundation of the basics, a lap timer can be a good tool.

That being said - particularly in the N and I groups, you don't need a lap timer to know when you're riding well. If you're smooth, and you're passing everything you can see - then you're getting closer and doing things better. Chris is right - it's a tool. Not the only tool, or even the most important tool. And like any tool you can use it wrong.

That makes a lot of sense Bill, I think I was just trying to justify buying the damn thing over winter when I was bored and just waiting for the season to start. You're right, I hardly even used it at Main. And it was absolutely pointless because most of the N sessions are filled with all of what you said. Learning techniques, rather than shaving times. I remember saying F this stupid thing and taking it off when the battery died and I felt better having the clutter off my triple tree. I think one of the only things that I thought would be useful would be logging corner speed etc. Since I have no clue what it is. As new riders, I think we just want a ton of information and it's instant feedback on how we're doing, however misdirected, and we're trying to see some quantitative evidence of improvement, rather than focusing on qualitative elements as you described.

I think where a lot of us get mixed up and focused on lap times, is that some Orgs use lap time benchmarks for group assignments. Before we get lined up with an Org focused on teaching skills and technique, most of us have been on the track with an Org that focuses on getting track time and less about refining characteristics of a skilled rider.

I've seen some new guys who are experienced with dataloggers from other motorsports who find them useful. I tend to agree with you Bill. Unless I'm racing, I suppose it's useless to have a timer.

Bill, I think your comments on banning dataloggers really gets to the point and makes me rethink my approach to using them. If no one had dataloggers, then lap times would be irrelevant and speed would be irrelevant and result in people focusing on the right things. As I write this I'm thinking more and more about it and it makes complete sense for me to just pack my stupid gadget away until it actually means something to me. Thanks again. Always making me think Bill. Dammit

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[meanstrk]

About the only time I use a timer anymore is when I am evaluating riders to see what they are doing.

 

[wmhjr]

Hey Kurt - don't sweat it. And I put "data loggers" in a little different category than a simple lap timer. If you're talking about a data logger such as a Yamaha CCU or a SpeedAngle, there are things there that can be really helpful. But I'd say helpful AFTER the day is over. Units like that can show you your lean angle, how deep you're carrying your brakes, where you're back on the throttle, etc. Frankly, for the Novice, the rider honestly already has way too much to think about just getting the core fundamentals down to "muscle memory". Some of you that I've coached before know that I use the phrase "slowing down the track". By that I mean making things like your pre-entry routine for corners automatic. You're already off the seat, inside knee out, proper foot placement, etc. The more things you develop as "automatic" the less you have to think about - which releases more brain cycles to think about the real variables. What's my entry speed. Confirm brake marker. Minute changes to the brake application, and smoothness. All of the sudden instead of feeling like it's chaos, a faster pace actually feels like you have more time to think. Lap timers don't help with that - they can hurt that development if that's what you're focusing on rather than hitting EVERY apex, good exits, etc. Only the Advance folks that have made the fundamentals completely automatic have the free brain cycles to be able to truly think about detailed data between sessions IMHO.

OTOH, at the end of the day, a review of actual "logged data" can be really helpful for the faster I - and certainly the A - riders. I'm still trying to sort mine out, but the ability to correlate corner exit speed leading to a drive with brake zones and entry speed is huge. Or to gauge just how much lean angle you're carrying into a corner at the same speed as somebody else - meaning you've got some body position work to do. This is truly a sport of inches - or really millimeters. In the N group, you'll take sometimes more than 10 seconds off of a lap time in general as you progress. In the I group it's half that. In the A group, we're fighting for the next tenth of a second - and then the next tenth after that....