I-group passing rules: control rider wave-by

[i-Zapp]

Not a fan. I've heard and have considered the rationale, but just not a believer. In my mind it's like having yet another super slow rider on the track that's hard to get around (in this case because his hand is out not because his lines are crazy). I guess the theory is that the control rider sees a large group ahead and is intentionally trying to spread the group out by holding the approaching rider(s) back and keeping them from passing in that corner.

Problem is that most intermediate riders are running a decent pace and in a rhythm, and coming up on a control rider every lap that's trying to manage the pace just adds disruption and additional potential for anxious moments. Why not just let the riders and track find their own equilibrium? - it happens nicely with the other orgs.

And as long as I'm venting - yesterday at Beaverun I spent my first 4 opening laps of an afternoon session on the rear wheel of a control rider. In four laps, he never even looked over his shoulder. Finally after catching the back of the field he got into his program and graciously waved the trailing riders behind.

I fully appreciate that you guys are trying to make it as safe as possible. But I really see this strategy as counter productive. Return to the riders the authority to navigate traffic and make passes at their own discretion (within the I group rules) - quite honestly that's much of the fun of a trackday: not only going fast but figuring out how to work traffic.

Just my "too sense".

 

[LesPow]

I hear ya, but it is not neccessarily counter productive, just a diff. approach to instructing young grasshoppers such as yourself the skills to riding faster more safely. I cant say why the CR did not wave you by within the first four laps, but you could have taken that time to also work on something else....body position, eyes, apex etc...It does not contribute to additional anxious moments if you are looking for potential problems before they occur. Like slower riders mid corner, a turtle or knee puck, or a crashed rider on the track. The experience of the CR in most instances will be to your benefit as we can interpret the field ahead and behind much better than the average I group fast guy. There are many variations of how it can be done but thats how we roll. If your having a bad experience at the track address the problem to the director and it will be rectified. Hope to wave you by soon enough.

 

[i-Zapp]

it's just a diff. approach to instructing young grasshoppers such as yourself the skills to riding faster more safely.

LOL "young grasshopper"? how'd you come up with that?? but thank you! Honestly, what "instruction" are the control riders really providing?? - this traffic management strategy is strictly an attempt to keep riders from passing in the corners; there's nothing actually learned from it (or being taught). You're working on your lines etc getting into your groove, and then whoooa big check up... wait patiently to be granted permission to execute your straightaway pass. How did that improve my skill set?

 

[Smithereens]

We ask members at the riders' meeting before the event starts to "vent" at the track where the CR's and Directors can do something to improve their experience before the day is done..... but having said that... we also tell riders it's OK to "show the CR a wheel" if you think you're being held up by the CR doesn't know you're there. (I'm not making excuses for any CR that runs 4 laps without looking back...that's improper). The notion that CR's are riding purely for traffic control is totally false. Most of the N2 CR's have received extensive training from the Yamaha Champions Riding School and are anxious to pass on what they've learned to other riders. We're also very selective about the bump from Intermediate to Advanced so although traffic control is part of the CR's responsibility ..... it is by no means their only reason for circulating in the Intermediate group.

 

[rob92]

George (I think that's you!).

Before N2 was even a name, this topic has been discussed, debated (sometimes heated), and now that we're the owners of this new club, we've once again entertained the discussion. I'm not sure what to make of the comment that a CR did not look back for 4 laps, as I'd be upset knowing that a CR didn't look back for 4 corners. I do wish it was brought to my attention, so we could have at least had that discussion. If you feel you're being held up, by all means show a wheel.

Back on point, the reason this topic has been debated is that it's a double edged sword. While we want members to enjoy themselves to the fullest, we have to balance speed/traffic amongst the group or things can turn bad in a hurry. We are simply not of the opinion that allowing people to "self-govern" and sort it out yields a positive outcome. We've also kicked around graduated controlled passing (more controlled in morning, relaxed in afternoon) since a) we have a disparity in riding ability and b) an even larger disparity in folks getting warmed up and coming up to speed.

I'll turn attention to Saturday morning. We had to roll the ambulances a few times due to folks ringing their bells in the first few sessions. First A session of the day and we have 4 wide going into T9 full bore. Why? It's the first session of the day, we have beautiful weather, we have the whole day ahead of us. So while one member is taking a ride to the hospital, we have another riders meeting to simply "remind" everyone that this is not a race and to settle down. I can't tell you how many track days I've been to where we've seen people ride over their heads, take themselves out, take out other members, and even control riders. This is not a self-correction mechanism I subscribe to.

I will leave you with this: point taken, it's actually something we've been discussing for a while, and we're trying to come up with something that satisfies everyone without compromising safety.

Stay tuned.

Thanks,

Rob ..

 

[prplppleatr239]

I've never had a problem with a CR not letting me pass under normal circumstances - All you have to do is show them a wheel and they'll usually wave you right by. Either that or I'll follow them for a bit and try to learn something.

This past Saturday afternoon @ the Beav needs some context though. There were wayyyyy too many red flags in the morning, and somebody from the I group got a helicopter ride in the 2nd session. In the first one after that in the afternoon, I followed a CR for a couple laps without a wave by as well. There were yellow flags out though. I have no problems with the track and the CRs taking an overly conservative approach in light of the morning events. They did the right thing in slowing everybody down a notch or two, which caused the afternoon to run a lot smoother.

 

[Pseudolus]

Hey I-Zapp. I for one, will chime in that I feel your pain. Before I got my bump to A, I was always being slowed down by a similar type of CR who never looked back. Come to find out N2 made him a codirector of their racing school. WTF????? Thankfully in A, I no longer see him much.

 

[Dave561]

Hey I-Zapp. I for one, will chime in that I feel your pain. Before I got my bump to A, I was always being slowed down by a similar type of CR who never looked back. Come to find out N2 made him a codirector of their racing school. WTF????? Thankfully in A, I no longer see him much.

I know that's not true. I see you every time I lap you

Let's not confuse not being able to pass with not allowing.

 

[Otto Man]

LOL "young grasshopper"? how'd you come up with that?? but thank you! Honestly, what "instruction" are the control riders really providing?? - this traffic management strategy is strictly an attempt to keep riders from passing in the corners; there's nothing actually learned from it (or being taught). You're working on your lines etc getting into your groove, and then whoooa big check up... wait patiently to be granted permission to execute your straightaway pass. How did that improve my skill set?

I've never taken part of managing a track day organization, and I've never donned a shirt either...but I have done a fair number of track days and seen a LOT of interesting things. And one thing you always have to keep in mind is that the track day is bigger than yourself. What do I mean by that? I mean that your view of the day is only a small scope of everything involved. Put yourselves in the shoes as if you were running the show. There were a lot of red flags Saturday morning. So had they not backed things down a notch, instead of you complaining about checking up on a large group, you would have been complaining about the lack of track time because of all the red flags throughout the day. Now, maybe not you in particular, but I assure you, somebody would have complained about it. It's happened plenty of times in the past.

So which outcome is better for the whole? Taking it back a notch, or just letting everyone crash out? Taking it back a notch. Why? Because it resulted in less red flags, which means less crashed bikes and less ambulance rides...and more seat time for you.

Having gone "full circle" - going from a novice rider that complained about liter bikes killing my 600 in the straight and I can't pass, complaining about no corner passes, then onto complaining about how you can only pass on the outside in intermediate, to finally riding in "A" group - I can assure you that they are all hollow complaints. They were never a problem to begin with, the problem always rested with me. It was me that didn't have the skill to pass the liter bikes on the brakes, and pass them that way. It was my fault I didn't learn how to start setting up a pass in a corner, only to time it so I passed him on the straight out of the exit. It was always on me, and the fact that I just didn't know how to get properly set up to do what I wanted to do.

So what's all that mean? There's a reason people are in Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced. They will always tell you that speed is not everything in Advanced group. And they are correct - but you'll never see a fast guy that doesn't know how to set up a pass.

My two cents for you to take to your next track day: Talk with a CR or one of the staff THE DAY OF, and tell them what's on your mind. Don't wait until everyone has gone home to complain about it online. Show a CR a wheel if they aren't looking back and you want to pass (Hint: They're probably not going to look back if there's a standing yellow flag on track...since that means no passing, right?!). And when you're caught up in those moments on track when you're forced to slow down, for whatever reason - use that time to really hone your body positioning, turn in points, learning where the bumps are at on track, etc. You cannot work on all these things while riding at 100% of your skill set. It's just not possible, and you will end up half-assing a little bit of everything, which eventually ends up with you sliding along the pavement.

 

[Pseudolus]

I know that's not true. I see you every time I lap you

Let's not confuse not being able to pass with not allowing.

I cannot stop laughing at that reply. I keep trying but I just can't stop laughing!

They were never a problem to begin with, the problem always rested with me. It was me that didn't have the skill to pass the liter bikes on the brakes, and pass them that way. It was my fault I didn't learn how to start setting up a pass in a corner, only to time it so I passed him on the straight out of the exit. It was always on me, and the fact that I just didn't know how to get properly set up to do what I wanted to do.

So what's all that mean? There's a reason people are in Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced.

So so true. I was also thinking about this dilemma and remembered there are two things N2 and formerly NESBA are known for. A faster Advanced group and safety. You would think they would be mutually exclusive but somehow the org achieved it. We should be celebrating that.

 

[r6blondie]

Just one additional thing to add. First two sessions of the day for N and I groups are yellow flag, so no passing anyone. The two additional laps are questionable. Are you sure the CR didnt tap his tail to have you follow him?

 

[rslocum]

Just one additional thing to add. First two sessions of the day for N and I groups are yellow flag, so no passing anyone. The two additional laps are questionable. Are you sure the CR didnt tap his tail to have you follow him?

Nope I was a couple bikes behind him and no look back or acknowledgement by the CR. I had enough of the "4 lap parade" and hot pitted to find some open track.

 

[i-Zapp]

First two sessions of the day for N and I groups are yellow flag, so no passing anyone. The two additional laps are questionable. Are you sure the CR didnt tap his tail to have you follow him?

I think you might mean "two laps" not sessions, and I don't think that's the case either way. First lap - yellow: sure, presuming that no one is running warmers. Otherwise, gitty-up. No excuse for not looking back. However, that's not the bone I want to fight over. The topic of this post is "wave-bys". At the end of the end day, N2 is presuming that most Intermediate riders are not able to execute outside passes and not get into trouble. And i'm not cool with that. It's that simple.

 

[r6blondie]

I think you might mean "two laps" not sessions, and I don't think that's the case either way. First lap - yellow: sure, presuming that no one is running warmers. Otherwise, gitty-up. No excuse for not looking back. However, that's not the bone I want to fight over. The topic of this post is "wave-bys". At the end of the end day, N2 is presuming that most Intermediate riders are not able to execute outside passes and not get into trouble. And i'm not cool with that. It's that simple.

Oops. First two laps of the first two sessions...

 

[Shinobi]

N2's not changing that brother. It's a big picture good of the squad thang!!! : )


Kawasaki ZX6 - 2007

Mechanics-Technique
Bravery-Restraint

 

[rslocum]

I guess since we are reflecting on the day lets bring this into it since I was maybe 1 bike ahead of this incident and it could have been me that crashed!

Supposedly what I'm reading is this CR doesn't think he was at fault. I'm call utter bullshit. In my eye CR's are role models. They should have the upmost consciousness and respect on the track for others abilities or lack there of. There was no need for him to do what he did. This isn't a flipping race. Rules in "I" group passing is supposedly no inside passes and at arms length. This guy barely had it straight up before the CR wiped out his front wheel. Not only did that guy crash there seem to be some other person in the grass because of the incident. There was enough stupid shit happening throughout the day and there is no need for a representative from the organization to pull shit like that in the intermediate group. As far as I'm concerned at the minimum you have just lost at least three participants for any future events.

 

[Otto Man]

At the end of the end day, N2 is presuming that most Intermediate riders are not able to execute outside passes and not get into trouble. And i'm not cool with that. It's that simple.

How are you getting that impression? Outside passes are allowed in "I" group. What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

 

[prplppleatr239]

The topic of this post is "wave-bys". At the end of the end day, N2 is presuming that most Intermediate riders are not able to execute outside passes and not get into trouble. And i'm not cool with that. It's that simple.

Whats the problem with wave bys anyways? Besides one isolated incident, have you had other issues getting held up without a wave? Even after showing a wheel?

 

[i-Zapp]

How are you getting that impression? Outside passes are allowed in "I" group. What exactly is the point you're trying to make?

these comments exemplify my frustration. yah, I get that i'm allowed to outside pass. Please read the earlier the posts.

 

[Pseudolus]

Hey I zapp,

I get that you're frustrated but can you take a moment to consider that there are dozens of us, who came up through the same system, that aren't annoyed by the requirement? Or that there are folks chiming in that are faster than you, have more experience than you both riding and running a track org, and they've chimed in on why its in place?

I've never had 4 laps of sh*t show on a track. 2 laps of something frustrating and I'm in the pits and I'll ride again later. I can't even imagine a CR not waving me by, being what I talk about after a track day.

Now these threads always end the same. You walk away unsatisfied. We walk away wondering why you choose to focus on this kind of stuff. We're riding motorcycles maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!

Hope you come out again and don't sweat the small stuff.