Trail Braking...Should I be Doing it?

[JRA]

I'm a firm believer that yes you should. This topic has been covered before and there are theories for and against. I'm only bring this up again because of all the SED talk recently and because I ran across this picture of me and Ken Fisher in Turn 5 from Barber last weekend.

If you look closely you can see that both of us are on the brakes hard and the forks on both of our bikes are very compressed (right click "view image" for larger pic). This should give an indication of hard hard you can actually brake while leaned over. Trail braking has two big benefits...it allows you to continue adjusting your speed all the way to the apex of the turn, and it helps you steer the bike. Extended forks raise the front end making it much harder to steer the bike to the apex, while compressed forks lower the front, changing the geometry, and allowing you to steer more precisely.

Can you crash on the brakes? Sure, but you can crash off the brakes too. This is a requirement for going faster and something that gets talked about quite a bit and demonstrated at our SED's.

Discuss.

 

[Saltman]

After reading more about it, I also tried it out at Barber. Still getting the hang of it, but it was very helpful. I plan on using and practicing this technique more in 2011.

 

[Hambone]

I have a fear of locking the front and crashing but I keep hearing that it isn't that difficult to learn and is necessary for going faster.

 

[shaugdog]

For me, I think it comes down to 2 things. First, has the rider even heard of trailbraking, and do you want to incorporate it into your riding. Second, are you comfortable with the very precise, smooth input you'll need on the brakes as you are leaned over? Some people just start doing it without even realizing it, and others I've seen do all their braking straight up and down.
I think the bike and how it's set up can have a big impact as well. I know for a fact on the liter bike in my avatar I could trailbrake very comfortablybecasue it was set up for my weight, and on the new 600 I have, either due to my susp being too soft or just the different feel of it, I am not nearly as comfortable trailbraking. But everyone's different, I know some very fast people who trailbrake, and some others who don't as much.

 

[beac83]

I've been cautious about using trail braking, but found myself using it at Barber in T5 a lot last weekend.

T5 is so tight at entrance that trail braking is really easy to learn there. It just feels natural to use it entering that corner. As I started depending on it, I found I could use it to start braking a bit later, and use trail braking to adjust speed and steering right to the apex. By the end of my day Sunday, I was using it into T1 and coming off the back straight as well. Definitely have more to work on with this, but the geometry of Barber T5 made it easy for me to learn/use.

Probably the best improvement I came away from last weekend with.

 

[erick1670]

when you at the track and you see riders at the B and I group when they are at the end of the front straigh, they allways or most of the time break the hardest and the tip the bike over to get into the turn, I am guilty of doing this.....

Trail breaking! I first hear this term in watchng motorcycle racing and I am sure is been around, but that`s where I hear it first and the commentators discribe it so good and how to do it, and then I did some serch on the topic.

And I started to apply it little by little and I am at the point that when I reach my last breaking point; I start by touching the reak lever and gradually apply more pressure thruogh the corner as need it. For sure this is one of first the tools you need to master to go fast first IMOP

I have been in few places that peaple have told me that my corner entry speed is sick, it makes me feel good when I hear things like that..... now I am working on my corner exit speed b/c that`s where people are passing me, I can see it in my videos

 

[sobottka]

another good example- turning in, forks fully compressed on the brakes. its a "must have" skillset
btw- i now use my index and ring finger to brake.

 

[greeny]

agreed... a must-have skill for beginners to experts. you can never start too soon. robbie, started braking with index and middle at putnam after you said to make the switch instead of just the middle finger. it instantly clicked and i have much more control.

http://thebellypan.com/?p=252

p.s. GO BEARS!

 

[JRA]

beac83;160567 wrote: I've been cautious about using trail braking, but found myself using it at Barber in T5 a lot last weekend.

T5 is so tight at entrance that trail braking is really easy to learn there. It just feels natural to use it entering that corner. As I started depending on it, I found I could use it to start braking a bit later, and use trail braking to adjust speed and steering right to the apex. By the end of my day Sunday, I was using it into T1 and coming off the back straight as well. Definitely have more to work on with this, but the geometry of Barber T5 made it easy for me to learn/use.

Probably the best improvement I came away from last weekend with.

Turn 5 is definitely a turn where I trail brake a lot. It's also a turn where it's easy to over do it as well. You really have to develop a feel for how much the front tire can take and for some (like me), you learn by over doing (not recommended). It's a technique best learned gradually. Knowing when you are approaching the limit is the key to not exceeding it. Being very smooth with applying the brake, and especially when releasing the brake make the difference between success and failure (on your head). This takes a lot of practice to get good at. Also, trail braking isn't something you use in every turn..for instance you mentioned Turn 11 at the end of the back straight. That's probably not a turn where you want to carry the brakes too deep. Again, working on this gradually while gaining experience is very important in learning how to trail brake without crashing.

Some turns require no braking at all, some require just a little to set your speed at turn in (like 11 at Barber), and some you brake really deep. It depends on a lot of things and sometimes those things change. For instance on Saturday at Barber carrying the brakes too deep into 5 was not a good idea. I couldn't brake normally there. The tire was letting me know that it didn't like what I was trying to do so my options were to ease off and run wide, slow my entry speed, or crash. I finally decided that slowing my entry speed was the wiser course of action.

Good discussion, keep it going.

 

[ronhix]

I'm a HUGE proponent of trailbraking. I think we need to teach it and practice it in all groups.

The primary issue I see in learning to trailbrake is that you have to carry a significant amount of pace for it to work. Kinda like a chicken / egg type problem. How do you go fast without trailbraking and how do you work on trailbraking without going fast?

In fact, when I CR in the B group I find it quite difficult to trailbrake at that pace because I am not going fast enough into the corners. I think we should teach it in detail and talk about it in B group, but you really need to be carrying I group pace before you really "feel it" and "experience" the true benefits.

When I went to my first Spencer school, I immediately got faster because the things they were teaching me (trailbraking was one) simply didn't work well at a slow pace. I wanted to work on the things that I learned at the school, so I went faster so I could work on the stuff. As I got better at the stuff I was working on, the improvements caused me to go faster still. Rinse and repeat and pretty soon you are hauling A$$. The system feeds on itself.

I think at the very beginning, you need to really understand it and then at some some point you just have to decide to go faster. But if you don't first know how to go faster (i.e. trailbraking) then you just wind up going faster and then getting hurt.

 

[fitz]

Simplifies things and gives you more control.

I guess look at it in the same way you apply the throttle coming out of a turn, you don't wait till you are perfectly up and down before you start giving more gas. Ease into the turn and ease out.

The KEY for me is the transition from braking to giving it gas, that part is to me the hardest to learn and explain.

 

[ronhix]

Thanks to our friends at Pics of You for this shot sequence (those guys do such a good job)!

Of the three riders in this photo sequence, which is using the brakes for the longest amount of time into this corner? How would anyone possibly make a pass "on the brakes" without using trailbraking??

One of the things they keep drilling into your head at Freddie Spencer and now YCRS is that the fastest person on the track is the one using the brakes the most.

 

[noobinacan]

I ended up doing it in turn 2, turn 8
and turn 16...out of need cause going in too hot. (at least too hot for me)


but need to work on going from hard braking....into trail braking and never letting go of brakes and turning.
any tips ?

edit: on second thought, guess just need more time/practice.

 

[hank]

Being able to TB is also another important 'arrow in the skills quiver' when it comes to riding safely - on numerous occasions I had to trail brake well past the apex in order to avoid a rider and/or his bike as they were sliding across my path....



At the FS school Nick had the best advice for me - he asked why I wasn't TBing in a tight section of the track and my response was that I wasn't really going fast enough there to require TBing. :dunno:

He simply stated - "then go faster".
:doh:

He was right (of course)....:idea:

 

[ronhix]

hank;160582 wrote: At the FS school Nick had the best advice for me - he asked why I wasn't TBing in a tight section of the track and my response was that I wasn't really going fast enough there to require TBing. :dunno:

He simply stated - "then go faster".
:doh:

He was right (of course)....:idea:

LOL. I think I had the exact same conversation with him!

 

[sobottka]

turn 14a @ barber (@ pit in) is a definate trail brake corner (while downshiftng!) especially if you carry speed through 14 and get back in the gas. JRA is correct about being smooth and learning gradually. the more lean angle used, the less brake used ...or you gradually, smoothly ease up on the lever as lean angle increases.

 

[JRA]

Exactly Rob. You have X amount of grip that you can use whether braking, or leaning, or some combination of both, and you have to gradually trade that braking grip for leaning grip on the entry, and then trade the leaning grip for acceleration grip (as you stand the bike up) on the exit. Being smooth in these transitions enables you to go deeper on the brakes and get on the gas earlier on the exit.

 

[TeamBeer]

I took the Skip Barber Superbike School and trail braking/body position were the primary lessons. The physics of trailbraking make sense. Keep the load on the front tire until you clear the apex. I witnessed first hand what happens whenyou get back into the throttle before the apex as one of my classmates lowsided in turn two at Laguna Seca while the instructor was getting him on video.

 

[dbakerpa]

You are so right about trailing and speed. After the SED and the awesome demonstration on VIR #3 I started working on this. I am undersprung on my SV650 and trailing allowed me to settle the bike WAY better and took me from high forties to low forties at VIR.
The smoothness this provided gave me the confidence to get the race license and try a couple next year.
NOTE: as you can see in my avatar going into 3 I am trailing in- the front forks are about 50% compressed.

 

[worldrider929]

Turns ideal for trailbraking - what's the consensus for VIR and NJMP

JRA [John Allen] or any of the trailbraking proponents:

What is the consensus for the turns that are ideal for trail braking at VIR and/or NJMP-Tbolt?

I am comfortable with trail braking but I sometimes question whether or not I needed to use it at some points/whether or not I overuse it.

Given that I am only familiar with VIR and NJMP-Tbolt, it would be helpful to hear where some of the faster guys are using this technique on these two tracks (and where they are not).

Thanks!