Trail Braking...Should I be Doing it?

[dbakerpa]

worldrider929;160624 wrote: JRA [John Allen] or any of the trailbraking proponents:

What is the consensus for the turns that are ideal for trail braking at VIR and/or NJMP?

I am comfortable with trail braking but I sometimes question whether or not I needed to use it at some points/whether or not I overuse it.

Given that I am only familiar with VIR and NJMP it would be helpful to hear where some of the faster guys are using this technique on these two tracks (and where they are not).

Thanks!

I am not really " one of the faster guys" I am usually pulling away on the corners because my SV is so light. I would suggest any corner that has any significant radius to it you can corner brake. I usually do not corner brake in 4 at VIR because it is a fast in and out corner and I am hitting the gas hard all the way into 5 which I will scrub off a little speed if need mid corner (careful with that) if I need to.
Remember you need to carry more speed into the corner. I actually started by not changing any of my entry and then gradually adding more speed in 1 at VIR and trailing deeper and deeper. Now I brake at 5 and trail to the apex. Never been to NJMP.
BUT- again my level of race/track experience is just silly compared to Hix and JRA.

 

[Mikey75702]

worldrider929;160624 wrote: JRA [John Allen] or any of the trailbraking proponents:

What is the consensus for the turns that are ideal for trail braking at VIR and/or NJMP?

I am comfortable with trail braking but I sometimes question whether or not I needed to use it at some points/whether or not I overuse it.

Given that I am only familiar with VIR and NJMP it would be helpful to hear where some of the faster guys are using this technique on these two tracks (and where they are not).

Thanks!

Not sure about faster guys, or which njmp track but at thunderbolt I trail brake in #1, 3(going into the chicane), 5, 7??( the right handed going down the hill) and 9 ( the sharp right)

 

[JRA]

I'm not really sure about NJMP since I have never been there. I can give you some insight on VIR though.
North course 1, 3, 4, 7, and 14 (or is it 15? RH turn at the top of the roller coaster) are where I'm definitely trailing the brakes. Turn 1 is where I'm probably on the brakes the hardest and the deepest.

Trail braking is something that should be intuitive though, and not really something you consciously think about prior to each turn. As you gain experience and speed you will (or should) just start doing it. For me I think it's similar to counter steering in that it was something I was already doing before I ever even heard the term and understood what it meant. I think like a lot of people the first time I heard the term I thought braking with the rear brake was being discussed. If you go for spirited rides in the mountains for any length of time trail braking will become a means of survival. Get in to a turn too hot and you either ride into it on the brakes or run off the road. As a result I already had a lot of experience braking and turning at the same time long before I knew what track days were.

If you aren't comfortable turning in while you are on the brakes then I would suggest only working on it under ideal conditions. In other words don't pick a frosty morning or a really cool day. Learning this technique is one of the keys to being fast, but it isn't the key to having fun at a track day. Going home with a smile on your face and you bike and body in one piece is the key to having fun. Again, I would say to practice this by gradually increasing your trail braking as you become more comfortable.

 

[Southerly]

One thing involving trail braking that I haven't seen explained well is moving from being on the brakes to being on the gas. What is the best way to accomplish this without upsetting the balance of the bike at that point? While braking the forks are compressed, but it would seem that there would be a radical change in the geometry mid corner when finally coming off the brakes and being on the gas.

Is it just a matter of smoothly coming off the brakes and then smoothly on the gas as the forks come up, or should the gas start coming on a bit while the brakes are still on?

Staying on the brakes going into the corner makes sense, and while I don't do it consistently, I have quite often either because I feel like I still have too much speed, or I am still closing on someone in front of me. I always feel uncomfortable with the bike mid corner as I come off the brakes however. I usually end up staying on the brakes too long, and continue to drop speed after the apex because of this.

 

[JonnyZ!]

I guess look at it in the same way you apply the throttle coming out of a turn, you don't wait till you are perfectly up and down before you start giving more gas. Ease into the turn and ease out.

The KEY for me is the transition from braking to giving it gas, that part is to me the hardest to learn and explain.

From YCS
2 times that You can apply throttle
1. You can reduce lean angle
2. You can see your exit

It was also stressed that in learning a new track it was very helpful to pull out a track map and analyze the various aspects of the layout determining which corners are "entry corners and which were "exit corners". Basically how your going to reduce your lap times by taking advantage of either entry speed or exit. The map is not always indicative of what your going to find once you have the opportunity to lap a few sessions but it will provide an initial plan. Another thing stressed at YCS........ Always have a plan. Set up your initial entry apex and exit marks (conveniently provided by the NESBA staff) and work on refining those marks during the course of each session/day. Once you've gotten a grasp on the references you work on various techniques and drills to help you take advantage of each challenge the track presents.
I find myself asking the question constantly while lapping...... Can I reduce my lean angle?......then get on the gas.... Can I see my exit?.........get on the gas. Now I try to refine at exactly what point I can reduce lean angle and its a linear progression to how hard I can accelerate. As I stand it up, I accelerate proportionally. There are times when you maintain but often you'll find in many long carousel type turns you can actually accelerate (reducing lean angle while in the turn) and the Trail brake to point the front (increasing lean again) to a second apex (in the event of a double apex) prior to rolling on again to exit.
NJMP Thunderbolt has an excellent example of such a turn. You can address this turn as one continuous radius turn or you address it as a double apex turn. Nick and Ken pointed out that once you enter the turn you can reduce lean....accelerate to the back...trail in and dip the front...see the exit, stand it up and go.

Hitting this turn on the 125 I find the I have to address it as one continuous radius and keep the speed up the whole way round. On the R6 I have to work to change the mindset and address it as a double apex.

It's what makes track riding fun regardless of how fast you are. Your trying to figure out what was in the designers mind and then work to solve the puzzle.

I recall having a nice session with #38 last weekend....was really fun!

 

[worldrider929]

What is the best way to accomplish this without upsetting the balance of the bike at that point?

Is it just a matter of smoothly coming off the brakes and then smoothly on the gas as the forks come up, or should the gas start coming on a bit while the brakes are still on?

Alright, I'll have a go at this one . . .

I would say that you are never completely off the gas when you are trail braking - you are simply transitioning from lots of brake to no brake and all throttle through the turn.

For me, the advantage to trail braking is that you have the best of both worlds:
1. You are compressing your forks later in the turn while 2. simultaneously enjoying the predictable traction that would normally occur when you decompress the forks by getting off the brakes and getting gradually on the gas as early as possible.

However, to execute this effectively, the key is to GRADUALLY transition from full braking to full throttle by GRADUALLY decreasing the braking to no brakes through the apex and GRADUALLY increasing the throttle from a little throttle to full throttle as you are standing the bike up.

If you aren't able to GRADUALLY TRANSITION from full brakes to full throttle then you find that you have commited the fundamental mistake of being on the brakes and off the throttle in the middle of a turn that will likely cause a get off.:doh:

There's definitely a very fine line that if crossed can be the difference between precise perfection and disaster.

 

[lemondrop]

One area that you can really make up some time and practice your trail braking skills is T7-T10 on t-bolt. You can and should be on the throttle going through "T8" which is the long right sweeper. T9 is where ya get to practice, the sharp Right hander before the left.

 

[worldrider929]

I can give you some insight on VIR though.
North course 1, 3, 4, 7, and 14 (or is it 15? RH turn at the top of the roller coaster) are where I'm definitely trailing the brakes. Turn 1 is where I'm probably on the brakes the hardest and the deepest.

Thanks JRA,

Based on your response, I'm relieved to know that I am doing generally what the fast guys are doing - I am ABSOLUTELY trail braking the most through turn one!

Initially, I was trailbraking slightly at one of the turns through the roller coaster and at the bottom turn leading to the straight but I found that there was a huge difference when I stopped trail braking completely through there . . . it's good to see that the fast guys aren't trail braking there either.

 

[Domenic]

JonnyZ!;160649 wrote:
I recall having a nice session with #38 last weekend....was really fun!

I recall being "smoked" by that 125:wow:
I am glad we got to talk a few words after the session. It was fun watching you on that little bike. Getting by you and then being smoked again. Was a fun and memorable session for sure. See you next year.

 

[Fastguy]

I must say that its refreshing to see this "black art" being openly discussed on the forum. When I was in the B group it was routinely preached "to get your braking done while the bike is straight up and down".



So thanks for this thread.

 

[dlockhart5x]

Sometime back in the dark ages (late 80s or early 90s) There was a article about trail braking in a moto mag. I think it may have been penned by Nick Ienatch (sp?) It featured a series photos of Eddie Lawson back in the Kawi superbike days. The point of the photos was to show how Eddie transitioned from braking into turning. The captions noted how the forks compressed under braking, then stayed compressed as Eddie leaned the bike into the turn. The bike did not rebound on it's way the apex. The braking force was being traded for cornering force as Eddie trailed off the brakes. Pretty cool and very impressive if you are old enough to remember the state of tire and bike technology back then.

 

[jimgl3]

anyone care to discuss the issues of trail braking w/ street tires? v race tires?
maybe the so-called "trackday" tires too

 

[jcurtis]

worldrider929;160624 wrote: JRA [John Allen] or any of the trailbraking proponents:

What is the consensus for the turns that are ideal for trail braking at VIR and/or NJMP-Tbolt?

I am comfortable with trail braking but I sometimes question whether or not I needed to use it at some points/whether or not I overuse it.

Given that I am only familiar with VIR and NJMP-Tbolt, it would be helpful to hear where some of the faster guys are using this technique on these two tracks (and where they are not).

Thanks!

I trail in the following turns on Thunderbolt: T1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (left), 6, 7, 8, 9(left) and 12. I trail brake for different reasons, though.

T2, 4, and 6, I trail brake lightly to set the bike's geometry so that it will turn easily (I ride a Suzuki :banghead. There are many fast guys that do not brake into T4. I trail slightly to set the bike to turn, then back on the gas because the track falls away a bit and there is a short squirt of acceleration before 5). There seem to be different approaches to this turn. Some trail to set the bike, some roll off a bit to set, some are on the gas. I will be working on this turn next year to pick up more speed.

9 I am trailing to set up the exit of the turn to get the best drive onto the front straight that I can. Many people take this turn tight around. One of the things YCRS taught when analyzing a track layout was to look at the fastest parts of the track first. (areas where are full open for the longest periods of time) and try to maximize the entry speed into that turn. These are areas where you can make up the most time on a track.

One thing that I did not see, but may have been mentioned is that one of the things you will find when you first start trail braking, is that you are going WAY too slow when you reach the apex and your are hardly even trail braking. You will need to adjust your brake markers. I need to stress how important it is to use SPECIFIC brake markers, and make SLIGHT adjustments to them. I say slight because as you find your pace increasing things happen a lot quicker and your adjustments will get smaller.

 

[JonnyZ!]

jimgl3;160677 wrote: anyone care to discuss the issues of trail braking w/ street tires? v race tires?
maybe the so-called "trackday" tires too

The principals of trail braking apply regardless of the tires/bike/environment (track/street, dry/wet)your riding in. I think the biggest factor determining the extent of braking is the speed your traveling. As noted by JRA the fastest guys use the brakes the longest/most.

Something I noticed while attending YCRS is that when first conscientiously applying these techniques, you'll find it very difficult to comprehend exactly where and when you should be braking. Then. I discovered how much I was relying on engine braking during the course of my transition from entry to apex. I was on an R6 for the school and quickly incorporated this aspect of a 4 stroke (engine braking). It took a while for it to occur to me that I was "braking" I just wasn't going fast enough to use my front.
That changed with a little drill they gave us.....
Championship lap

You have to cross the finish line to win the championship.
We'll present you with a problem and you have to finish the lap as fast as you can with that problem in order to win the "Championship"

Some examples...
You ditched the bike but could pick it up and still ride..... you have no right rearset...GO!
You ditched. You have no subframe and cant sit down......GO!

What opened my eyes was
Your stuck in 5th....GO!
Now , Ive gotten pretty good at slipping the clutch from slow to go but coming into turn 1 at NJMP at speed with little engine braking... you learn real quick what trail braking to apex is. It was then that I realized that I had to start "gettin it" before I started "getting it".

It was very apparent and quite a bit easier once I hopped back to GP bikes as there is not a lot of engine braking when off the throttle. I had always trail braked. Its something you have to do when on a 2stroke. (why I think they should be the logical progression in learning to go fast). It was eye opening how fast I had to go before I was conscientiously setting up and adjusting speed with the front when on the 4stroke.
Something I really need to work on.

 

[ronhix]

Trailbraking's #1 enemy is coasting.

If I had to pick a single key difference between guys that are fast and guys that are not, it would the amount of coasting.

 

[JonnyZ!]

Just a side note. The track/street is a dynamic environment (constant change/flux) and requires the rider to adjust accordingly. Even lapping solo will require adjustments in various "markers".
Ex missed gear on entry etc. Mike Himmelsbach preferred to use/ incorporate "references", places he preferred to be or
markers he preferred to use. As soon as you introduce traffic the whole idea of "marks " gets blurred. To pinpoint exactly where, when and how much you should incorporate trail braking is different for each rider and every lap.
When do you trail brake? Ken Ienacht, "When you need to". When do you stop braking? "When your comfortable with your speed"." As simple as it is complex. Some are way more comfortable at a given speed than others but all levels of rider can incorporate this "rule" universally.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

ronhix;160695 wrote: Trailbraking's #1 enemy is coasting.

If I had to pick a single key difference between guys that are fast and guys that are not, it would the amount of coasting.

I've been a gulity "coaster".

in short it messes everything up but I'd say most importantley the ability to produce a really good drive off the turn.

BZ

 

[erick1670]

ronhix;160695 wrote: Trailbraking's #1 enemy is coasting.

If I had to pick a single key difference between guys that are fast and guys that are not, it would the amount of coasting.

I have to say that I am guilty of coasting at the middle to exit of a corner and I am working in getting the confidence to punch it out.... But not coasting in entry would cause a lowside I would think :dunno:

 

[barry38]

On the track you should be doing one of two things. Accelerating or decelerating, on the gas or on the brakes. No coasting.

 

[noobinacan]

barry38;160710 wrote: On the track you should be doing one of two things. Accelerating or decelerating, on the gas or on the brakes. No coasting.

was just about to say that...ha
I have learned, that usually when I find myself coasting, it means that I have not picked my braking marker.