Trail Braking...Should I be Doing it?

[ronhix]

I coast when I get fatigued. I coast because it is more comfortable than attacking a corner. But it is the one thing that affects my lap times the most. And it is the one thing that causes me to scrub too much speed too early which effectively reduces my ability to trailbrake and turn the bike effectively.

 

[Southerly]

I can see I will have a lot to work on next season. It is going to be interesting learning to combine trail braking with counter leaning and using the rear brake for 90% of the braking.:notsure:

 

[jfeagin]

barry38;160710 wrote: On the track you should be doing one of two things. Accelerating or decelerating, on the gas or on the brakes. No coasting.
If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a CR say this, I'd have a lot of nickels. I'm still working to be smooth with the brakes-to-gas transition in a corner, but I've gotten past the fear of having a finger or two on the lever while keeping the throttle cracked. Even being slow, I believe I'm starting to understand the feel of this. So, for everybody who rides street and doesn't do this, here's one thing I do that seems to help. Keep a finger or two on your brake lever as much as you can while riding. Not with any pressure (before need), but just to accustom your hand to how it feels to manipulate the throttle without all fingers on it.

Southerly;160721 wrote: I can see I will have a lot to work on next season. It is going to be interesting learning to combine trail braking with counter leaning and using the rear brake for 90% of the braking.:notsure:

It'll all make sense once you're riding flat out.

 

[vinny337]

barry38;160710 wrote: On the track you should be doing one of two things. Accelerating or decelerating, on the gas or on the brakes. No coasting.

+1 on the coasting I remember you telling me that...

After the SED this year I've been trailbraking, there's always room for improvement but I must say it's worked for me in certain corners.

 

[jimgl3]

dear fellow B group riders... please use caution on street / trackday tires which lack the stiffer sidewalls (front) designed for increased cornering forces associated with racing. i always thought the increased cornering forces were largely associated with trail braking, but maybe i was misinformed.

 

[gkotlin]

I always complained about not being able to trail brake. After going to YCRS. It's not an option. It's a necessary skill you need in your arsenal if you want to go fast. I've improved my riding so much this season with that little lever.

I always thought it was an advanced only skill. We had two very novice riders at our YCRS school. I was convinced my logic was wrong. Like anything else, when you take baby steps and grow into any skill, it's no more difficult to do then anything else.

 

[JonnyZ!]

jimgl3;160751 wrote: dear fellow B group riders... please use caution on street / trackday tires which lack the stiffer sidewalls (front) designed for increased cornering forces associated with racing. i always thought the increased cornering forces were largely associated with trail braking, but maybe i was misinformed.

I trail brake deep into corners on the street with my 1150GSA mule. It's got trail tires on it. The principals of trail braking are universal. It was demonstrated to us on a wet track with a mini van full of guys. That's where the lights came on for many of the riders. If you reach the limit of adhesion on a tire the tire will skid. (Feedback) the point is you can apply brake in just about any circumstance/condition so long as you do not exceed the limit of adhesion.
Nick asked the question. "How many of you guys ride the street?" Not many raised their hand. He then said "I love riding the street!". "What do you do if your turning into a turn and as you round the bend, someone is in your lane?"....... "I use the brake and steer around him".
Very enlightening

 

[jimgl3]

i do on my vstrom too with trail tires, but i'm not at nearly the same speed as on track

i use my rear brake on the street, but not on the track. not yet

 

[dbakerpa]

vinny337;160741 wrote: +1 on the coasting I remember you telling me that...

After the SED this year I've been trailbraking, there's always room for improvement but I must say it's worked for me in certain corners.

Nick I. was pushing the point that when you are trail braking the chain is always tight so you dont upset the rear when you start on the gas. Thus mean you are always on the gas in varying degrees througout the corner. Harder in practice.

 

[ronhix]

dbakerpa;160852 wrote: Nick I. was pushing the point that when you are trail braking the chain is always tight so you dont upset the rear when you start on the gas. Thus mean you are always on the gas in varying degrees througout the corner. Harder in practice.

You are never on the gas and the front brake at the same time. Being on the gas and brake at the same time IS NOT a part of trailbraking. I've heard this question asked at the Spencer school and at the SED day at VIR this past season. Nick's answer was that you are never on the gas and the brakes at the same time.

The only time I am ever on the gas and the REAR brake at the same time is when I need to keep the front end down at places like turn 5 at Road Atlanta or on the front straight at Road America - but that is a completely different thing all together.

 

[fitz]

I think I trail brake pretty good, I get a little better with every track day.

I have to admit though, this whole thread is REALLY starting to confuse me :doh:

fitz

 

[dbakerpa]

Ron- Maybe I am confused. He kept saying to keep power to the rear wheel so it is a smooth transition from brake to gas. Maybe I dont get it. You went to YCS didnt you? What does he mean? I want to be a smooth as possible but dont want to crash. I keep a tiny amount of throttle coming in even as I trail it seems to even the bike out a bit. Is that a bad idea?

 

[greeny]

ronhix;160929 wrote: You are never on the gas and the front brake at the same time. Being on the gas and brake at the same time IS NOT a part of trailbraking. I've heard this question asked at the Spencer school and at the SED day at VIR this past season. Nick's answer was that you are never on the gas and the brakes at the same time.

The only time I am ever on the gas and the REAR brake at the same time is when I need to keep the front end down at places like turn 5 at Road Atlanta or on the front straight at Road America - but that is a completely different thing all together.

unless your name is mat mladin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcdNflG1rTQ

 

[jimgl3]

dbakerpa;160965 wrote: Ron- Maybe I am confused. He kept saying to keep power to the rear wheel so it is a smooth transition from brake to gas. Maybe I dont get it. You went to YCS didnt you? What does he mean? I want to be a smooth as possible but dont want to crash. I keep a tiny amount of throttle coming in even as I trail it seems to even the bike out a bit. Is that a bad idea?

dont forget to be slowly feeding out the clutch as well...

there's no way i can consciously think about all that stuff while riding

nor, for that matter can i tell you what i did and when i did it. it's one of the things that makes Rossi sooooo good, he can accurately give all that feedback to his crew

 

[JonnyZ!]

ronhix;160929 wrote: You are never on the gas and the front brake at the same time. Being on the gas and brake at the same time IS NOT a part of trailbraking. I've heard this question asked at the Spencer school and at the SED day at VIR this past season. Nick's answer was that you are never on the gas and the brakes at the same time.
.

I asked the very same question while attending YCRS. I asked if I should be rolling on throttle while simultaneously rolling off brake. Nick said "No", you shouldn't be on the gas while on the brake. So I asked for clarification. "I'm actually coming off brake while applying throttle" He reiterated. "No, you shouldn't be on throttle while on brake".

Worked for me ...and I adjusted that millisecond to roll on throttle when I had completely rolled off brake

 

[JonnyZ!]

In the initial riders meeting Nick and Ken asked everyone why they were there and what they expected to get from the class.
I said, "I was a seat of the pants rider most of the time". Things start happening at speed that I can't always make sense of consciously or subconsciously" "I needed theory to work on while off the bike and then be able to apply while on it."
They basically said , "don't expect to take what your going to learn here and be able to apply it fully. Your gonna need time to sort out whats being taught and that's why many return. They've made sense of some of the theory and want to refresh or reintroduce that which they haven't."
Reality is .. it's like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time.
Sometimes..........after all the reading, instruction, and "Book learnin", Ya just gotta toss it in the bin and go ride..........by the seat of your pants ! amazing how much stuff you apply once ya just let go and do what comes natural

 

[physicistkev]

Sobottka (and everyone else)
quick question regarding braking digit usage.

I have found that I brake with pinky, ring and middle finger on my right hand. I never really noticed it until this year. It's always been very comfortable and I do get compliments on my braking abilities, especially on the new bike. VIR north and south I noticed that I made up gobs of distance one people breaking for turn one. I do trail brake, probably not as much as I should though.

Why did you change to the middle and ring finger combo and what was the difference you noticed?

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[ronhix]

greeny;160969 wrote: unless your name is mat mladin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcdNflG1rTQ

WOW. Thank you for posting that interview Jordan!!! That was some VERY interesting stuff about learning to ride the front of the motorbike. I definitely learned something and I will definitely be working on that stuff next season.

BUT...

I don't think he is actually saying for us to be on the brakes and the gas at the same time ... more like he is describing blipping and downshifting while braking really hard. Basically, seems like he is feathering the clutch and gas to get the bike to not get so out of shape under VERY hard braking. You don't go 75 feet deeper into turn than the rest of the entire AMA field and not have some serious issues with the bike getting out of shape!

Excellent link. THANK YOU!

 

[greeny]

knew you'd like that one when you have some extra time, start at the intro and work your way down:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6230A455774C4C73

there are a lot of parts to the series and you get a bunch of really good perspectives on a ton of different topics. he's definitely an interesting dude.

 

[ronhix]

greeny;160999 wrote: knew you'd like that one when you have some extra time, start at the intro and work your way down:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6230A455774C4C73

there are a lot of parts to the series and you get a bunch of really good perspectives on a ton of different topics. he's definitely an interesting dude.

Will do. He definitely "thinks" about riding from a different perspective than the Spencer school or YCS school. Some very good stuff there. No way you can argue with the man's results!!!