Trail Braking...Should I be Doing it?

[matt2212]

JRA;268256 wrote: Last year I bought some software to use in marketing stuff for work (called Camtasia Studio 8, pretty cool BTW), and I was playing around with some video that Chuck's buddy Ed shot of us riding together last year at Road Atlanta. I stuck it up on the Air Fence Fundraiser website so you can see, because I think it demonstrates pretty clearly how you should be approaching the kind of braking you are talking about.

There is more than one example of this in the video, but at 1:03 you'll see where I am already off the bike to the left side setting up for Turn 10A. I'm still braking really hard at that point and that's about four seconds before I even began to turn. Same is true for turn 12. I'm using this specifically because there isn't a better example of a hard turn at the end of a straight.

The point is that you really need to set your body position early. You can still brake hard, and you can still actually grip the tank with your knees when your butt is already well of the seat. You do not want to be moving the mass of your body by "getting into position quickly" as you are ready to turn in.

More to the point of this thread is that in both Turn 10A and in Turn 12 I'm braking all the way to the apex of the turn.

http://nesba-airfence-fundraiser.com/Motorcycle-Pages.html

This video really shows Aman's point several post ago #106 very well, The suspension on the bike stays settled from turn in through exit. no wasted movement and Super smooth riding.

 

[Ruhe52]

Sorry there is something wrong with the video.

More to the point audio.

 

[HondaGalToo]

denbsteph;268274 wrote: Sounds like someone has been injected with YCRS kool-aid.

I do the same as far as body position is concerned, not gripping the tank though. I'm doing the peg weighted tactic, pressure on the inner peg. As far as TB goes, slowly but surely driving deeper into the corners, body is already set up for the turn. Wanting to trust the TB.

I was told to not sit in the center of the seat and to set up early for the corners in other schools, too, not just YCRS.
No kool-aid, the basics are the basics.

 

[D-Zum]

HondaGalToo;268288 wrote: I was told to not sit in the center of the seat and to set up early for the corners in other schools, too, not just YCRS.
No kool-aid, the basics are the basics.

And when racers like Cardenas, Westby, Spies, Bostroms, Herrins, and Hayes trek out to Utah or New Jersey for the YCRS Staff's coaching and consultation..that pretty much says they know what they're talking about.

 

[Ruhe52]

While your at it. If you have multiple rights or lefts to make just stay off the bike.

IE Turn 12 at Road Atlanta just stay off the right side down the straight as you are going to be making a right pretty soon.
Don't recenter your body and waste energy or upset your bike twice.

This is the way to do this. No point wasting time talking at the track.


Mike Ruhe
SE CR 52
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[jimgl3]

Ruhe52;268308 wrote: While your at it. If you have multiple rights or lefts to make just stay off the bike.

IE Turn 12 at Road Atlanta just stay off the right side down the straight as you are going to be making a right pretty soon.
Don't recenter your body and waste energy or upset your bike twice.

This is the way to do this. No point wasting time talking at the track.

yeah, well the front straight may be a little extreme... or were you being sarcastic? but i must admit i was a little surprised that West centered up his butt between 5 and 6. would have thought he would have slid on across to the right side.

 

[noobinacan]

jimgl3;268309 wrote: yeah, well the front straight may be a little extreme... or were you being sarcastic? but i must admit i was a little surprised that West centered up his butt between 5 and 6. would have thought he would have slid on across to the right side.

extra style points for corti

 

[Ruhe52]

Nope not sarcastic and don't know about you but I'm not on that front straight for that long. Different strokes for different folks but forgot your racing one or two events this year Jim so I'll retract and suspend any and all advice that might leak your way.

Now that is sarcastic
Oh and why wouldn't you between 5 and 6 5 is a left and 6 is a right.

 

[JRA]

Ruhe52;268281 wrote: Sorry there is something wrong with the video.

More to the point audio.

Don't be a hater, you can always turn the volume down.

 

[Ruhe52]

No hate the compression rate makes it sound like music from the Blue Oyster Bar and Mens Club:spank:

http://youtu.be/tdbt-sx5MDc

 

[TimW]

Just a thanks to all for the tips and the video post ups in particular. Excellent thread. I feel I had a pretty good intellectual understanding of trail braking even if not fluent in practice yet...but some of the tips on earlier setup of body position is something I evidently wasn't understanding...the vids helped big. Thanks, maybe one day I'll have some solid knowledge to pass on!

 

[jimgl3]

Ruhe52;268328 wrote: Nope not sarcastic and don't know about you but I'm not on that front straight for that long. Different strokes for different folks but forgot your racing one or two events this year Jim so I'll retract and suspend any and all advice that might leak your way.

Now that is sarcastic
Oh and why wouldn't you between 5 and 6 5 is a left and 6 is a right.

several CR's told me to just go on over to the right in preparation for 6 instead of stopping in the middle. it works for me.

i wish i could get through that damned chicane the way West does! f*ck!

 

[JRA]

jimgl3;268309 wrote: yeah, well the front straight may be a little extreme... or were you being sarcastic? but i must admit i was a little surprised that West centered up his butt between 5 and 6. would have thought he would have slid on across to the right side.

It's not super clear because I guess I cut out the front straight in most of the video but around 3:04 you'll see that I'm staying off to the right for the whole front straight. Also between 6 and 7, and 10A and 12.

Another thing that might make a good teaching point here is that immediately after the above mentioned part of the video I blow the exit of turn 1 really badly. Watch how the camera bike crosses over the very end of the blend line from pit out (correct line) and notice how wide I am. It completely messes me up for the next three turns, and that one mistake probably cost me a couple of seconds on that lap. Point being that lines really matter a lot, and that should be the first thing you try to get right before worrying about going fast. It's the fastest and safest way to get around the track.

 

[JRA]

jimgl3;268402 wrote: several CR's told me to just go on over to the right in preparation for 6 instead of stopping in the middle. it works for me.

I do that as soon as I can, but if you're on anything more than a 600 I think most guys are trying to keep the front down as we crest the hill. In theory though you are right in what you are saying, and if you bike isn't trying to point the front to the sky that's what you should be doing. A great example is Barber between 4 and 5, and also between 10 and 11. As soon I can complete the first of those turns I go to the opposite side to set up for the following one. Never back to the middle of the seat.

 

[rob92]

When the Belly Pan was created, Nick provided us with the following article on the topic of trail-braking. He makes very clear how even light/modest input can lead to noticeable improvement in braking/cornering. Worth the read.

I did the YCRS school a few times myself. After the first school a big take-away for me was not only effective trail-braking, but how I used it as a vital part of my steering.

http://thebellypan.com/?p=252

 

[vinny337]

rob92;268412 wrote: When the Belly Pan was created, Nick provided us with the following article on the topic of trail-braking. He makes very clear how even light/modest input can lead to noticeable improvement in braking/cornering. Worth the read.

I did the YCRS school a few times myself. After the first school a big take-away for me was not only effective trail-braking, but how I used it as a vital part of my steering.

http://thebellypan.com/?p=252

Good stuff Rob! thanks for sharing...

 

[jimgl3]

absolute proof that anyone can trail brake

 

[bradvanhorn]

Glad someone bumped this thread. I too need to develop trail braking skill this year. I tried it (gently) a few times in January at NOLA and found it helpful. What I seem to always have heard in the past is, "oh, that's an advanced skill you'll learn when you get faster," and so I hadn't really thought to even try. In hindsight I think it would be worth at least getting an education on it sooner, even if the slower pace didn't make it necessary.

That Larry Pegram image reminds me of... Kevin Schwantz, Mick Doohan, Miguel Duhamel, Mat Mladin (occasionally)... clearly that body position won't get you anywhere . That position also is pretty close to what Jason Pridmore teaches at his STAR school. I first learned body position from California Superbike School and I didn't like the crossed up feel I got at the STAR school.

jimgl3;268265 wrote: someone needs to tell this guy that his body position sux. then he might could finish better than 3rd place...

 

[D-Zum]

 

[crewnutz]

bradvanhorn;268699 wrote: Glad someone bumped this thread. I too need to develop trail braking skill this year. I tried it (gently) a few times in January at NOLA and found it helpful. What I seem to always have heard in the past is, "oh, that's an advanced skill you'll learn when you get faster," and so I hadn't really thought to even try. In hindsight I think it would be worth at least getting an education on it sooner, even if the slower pace didn't make it necessary.

That Larry Pegram image reminds me of... Kevin Schwantz, Mick Doohan, Miguel Duhamel, Mat Mladin (occasionally)... clearly that body position won't get you anywhere . That position also is pretty close to what Jason Pridmore teaches at his STAR school. I first learned body position from California Superbike School and I didn't like the crossed up feel I got at the STAR school.

I would have to disagree with the statement that Pridmore teaches that body position. I've always found it to be more of a lesson that too many riders hang off to such an extreme that it actually creates a hinderence on ability to control the bike.

But yes, body position is only one part of the equation.