Trail Braking...Should I be Doing it?

[bradvanhorn]

crewnutz;268708 wrote: I would have to disagree with the statement that Pridmore teaches that body position. I've always found it to be more of a lesson that too many riders hang off to such an extreme that it actually creates a hinderence on ability to control the bike.

But yes, body position is only one part of the equation.

Yes, he certainly covered the concept that many riders hang off to the extreme, which is inefficient and not always beneficial. Having attended only one STAR school, I have only that one experience to rely on. His instructors taught us to pivot around the tank and hang the upper body off less. This creates a position which sits and appears nearer to (or actually is) crossed up compared to what I learned at CSS. Compare Dylan Code position to Jason Pridmore position (I'm not comparing racing accomplishment by the way) and there is a clear difference. I don't proclaim there is one answer or that I know it - look at Marquez extreme body position these days. If this is old news to you, then my apologies.

 

[Pseudolus]

I wanted to bump this thread because I came across it a few months back and started focusing on integrating trail braking into my skill set this season. Besides learning the fundamentals the CR's preach in B group, trail braking has had the most impact on my ability to up my pace around the track.

I thought I was getting really good at it this weekend at Thunderbolt and my times are definitely improving but I also felt like I was on the edge of my available traction so I decided to reread this thread. I now realize I missed the entire part about being able to brake hard during turn in. I was turning in while at 20% of braking power but I see that some of the veterans are doing it at 80%? I also saw a diagram in this thread from Fitz that shows optimal turn in being done under 50% braking power (in turns where that is appropriate).

Can someone give me their take on what the optimal braking power at turn in should be, to still be erring on the side of not lowsiding!

Maybe the better way to phrase the question is how hard can I be braking at turn in, to carry as much speed as possible while still having a very low risk factor for lowsiding due from braking?

I'm thinking the answer may vary depending on turns so for example, Turn 1 at VIR North or Turn 7 at Thunderbolt (left hander 1 turn after wheelie hill?)?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Otto Man]

I don't believe there is going to be a set percentage on how much braking you can do across the board for every single rider, on every single kind of bike, for every track and turn.

The "optimal braking power at turn in" is the braking power that allows you to carry the most amount of corner speed...without losing front end traction.

I know, not the specific answer you're looking for. LOL

There's two ways you can feel out the edge of traction. You can go balls out every time, drive it in deep and hope it sticks, then slow down a little bit every time you crash. Or, you can take baby steps on increasing cornering speed from where you're comfortable at now. The latter will take longer to find the threshold, but it's a helluva lot cheaper and easier on both you and your bike.

 

[Dylan Code]

I think your question has many variables connected and a single answer would work in some cases but not others. It might help to think of trail braking in terms of fork compression as that is something a rider is fairly aware of.

Keith Code references to trail braking in 1983, A Twist of the Wrist Volume I.

“To get into a turn correctly, you must time the braking and turning so that the bike stays even, not going up or down, at the point you let off the brakes. You must let off the brakes at the exact moment your fork is compressed just enough for the speeds and cornering loads it will be undergoing through the turn. Apply the throttle so that the fork extension doesn’t change, or changes the least amount possible. This will allow you to go into the turn without any up and down motion. If your timing’s off, you may complain that the bike handles poorly, possibly thinking the shocks are gone.” P. 35

“Your target, or sub-product for any turn in which you brake and turn in succession, is timing the braking, steering and throttle so that fork and shock extension are kept as even as possible.” P. 35

“To go in perfectly, you would let off the brakes as you go into the banking just as the suspension is taking the load from the centrifugal force. This will give the smoothest entry. You back out of the brakes just as the turn takes over the job of compressing the suspension.” P. 36

“Using the brakes as an on/off switch, however, creates dramatic changes in the bike’s weight transfer and attitude, which makes the sensing of speed difficult.” P. 66

“Most riders have the idea that the brakes are some kind of on/off switch. Reach a brake marker and pull them on--get down to another marker and let them off. This isn’t true...” P. 62

“Think of the brakes as a reverse throttle.” P. 63


This is from Twist of the Wrist Volume II:

“Of course, you can’t quicken the steering if you’re still hard on the brakes.” P. 75

Regarding weight on the front:

“For steering, you want weight on the front to get that bite and turn action. From this perspective, you can get on the gas too early, before the bike has finished getting the extra advantage from the loaded front.” P. 59

Regarding fast riders and trail braking from the Soft Science by Keith Code:

“In almost every situation, the very best riders in the world finish their braking as they make their steering change while they are leaning the bike over.” P. 94

 

[Andrei]

Pseudolus;278135 wrote: I wanted to bump this thread because I came across it a few months back and started focusing on integrating trail braking into my skill set this season. Besides learning the fundamentals the CR's preach in B group, trail braking has had the most impact on my ability to up my pace around the track.

I thought I was getting really good at it this weekend at Thunderbolt and my times are definitely improving but I also felt like I was on the edge of my available traction so I decided to reread this thread. I now realize I missed the entire part about being able to brake hard during turn in. I was turning in while at 20% of braking power but I see that some of the veterans are doing it at 80%? I also saw a diagram in this thread from Fitz that shows optimal turn in being done under 50% braking power (in turns where that is appropriate).

Can someone give me their take on what the optimal braking power at turn in should be, to still be erring on the side of not lowsiding!

Maybe the better way to phrase the question is how hard can I be braking at turn in, to carry as much speed as possible while still having a very low risk factor for lowsiding due from braking?

I'm thinking the answer may vary depending on turns so for example, Turn 1 at VIR North or Turn 7 at Thunderbolt (left hander 1 turn after wheelie hill?)?

Thank you in advance!

Until you feel the front tire starts sliding forward or you think you gonna shit your pants (whichever comes first) Then you begin gradually (and quickly) reduce the braking power and leaning the bike in.

Of course, you should be also on the inside of the bike to manage the slide otherwise you gonna simply dump it, which is stupid.

 

[JRA]

take baby steps on increasing cornering speed from where you're comfortable at now. The latter will take longer to find the threshold, but it's a helluva lot cheaper and easier on both you and your bike.
Very good advice right here. To go faster without crashing you need to brake harder, go deeper, and carry the brakes longer, while working to have the best possible body position all the way through the turn. Work on this in very small steps and pay attention to this:

but I also felt like I was on the edge of my available traction

We all ride by the way the bike feels whether we realize it or not. Listen to what it is telling you. As you improve the things mentioned above you will be able to do all these things progressively better allowing you to brake harder, go deeper, and carry the brakes longer without feeling like you are pushing farther past your limits.

Also, don't over think this by trying to figure out how hard you are braking at any given point. Track surfaces and turn configurations are way too varied to worry about percentages. For instance an uphill cambered turn will allow you to brake differently than a downhill off camber turn. Clear you mind of all the other stuff, focus on good body position and being smooth with all inputs, and listen to what your motorcycle is telling you.

 

[Pseudolus]

Thank you for all of the great advice!

My body positioning has been suffering as I am going into the turn faster so I know it's time to go back to the fundamentals and strengthen those. I also started to feel like I was drifting more towards Otto Man's first scenario (see what happens) so all of the advice is a good wake up call to pull back a little bit, strengthen the basics and then start pushing in baby steps.

 

[denbsteph]

My body positioning has been suffering as I am going into the turn faster so I know it's time to go back to the fundamentals and strengthen those. I also started to feel like I was drifting more towards Otto Man's first scenario (see what happens) so all of the advice is a good wake up call to pull back a little bit, strengthen the basics and then start pushing in baby steps.
The above quote is from "PSEUDOLUS" oops.


I agree, back to basic fundamentals is where I need to go. Although at VIR North 2 weeks ago, my speed, trail braking improved dramatically, at the same time body position diminished. One of the riding brothers sent me some video's where he was following me. My head has gravitated back towards the middle of the speed screen So, I know what I have to do, get back to basics, BODY POSITION is a priority for me in my book.

 

[noobinacan]

Andrei;278138 wrote: Until you feel the front tire starts sliding forward or you think you gonna shit your pants (whichever comes first) Then you begin gradually (and quickly) reduce the braking power and leaning the bike in.

Of course, you should be also on the inside of the bike to manage the slide otherwise you gonna simply dump it, which is stupid.
uhh....that's not going to work.
anything 'quick' with the the brake lever will get you in trouble.
if you're sliding...specially the front, you're already in trouble and now you will recover either due to pure luck or muscle memory/feel.

trail braking is a black art, the only way to learn it is the practice it...the more you practice it, the better muscle memory/feel you will build.

end of the day, its all about feel.

like JA and others have already said, small baby steps add up to big progress end of the season.


Otto Man;278136 wrote:
There's two ways you can feel out the edge of traction. You can go balls out every time, drive it in deep and hope it sticks, then slow down a little bit every time you crash. Or, you can take baby steps on increasing cornering speed from where you're comfortable at now. The latter will take longer to find the threshold, but it's a helluva lot cheaper and easier on both you and your bike.

yup, like you said..
option1 here is a Racing/desperate move and riding way over your head move.
it only leads to not just you going down, or worse ...high chance you will torpedo someone.
it is the perfect recipe for disaster. do not bother giving it a try

 

[motorkas]

Pseudolus;278135 wrote: I wanted to bump this thread because I came across it a few months back and started focusing on integrating trail braking into my skill set this season. Besides learning the fundamentals the CR's preach in B group, trail braking has had the most impact on my ability to up my pace around the track.

I thought I was getting really good at it this weekend at Thunderbolt and my times are definitely improving but I also felt like I was on the edge of my available traction so I decided to reread this thread. I now realize I missed the entire part about being able to brake hard during turn in. I was turning in while at 20% of braking power but I see that some of the veterans are doing it at 80%? I also saw a diagram in this thread from Fitz that shows optimal turn in being done under 50% braking power (in turns where that is appropriate).

Can someone give me their take on what the optimal braking power at turn in should be, to still be erring on the side of not lowsiding!

Maybe the better way to phrase the question is how hard can I be braking at turn in, to carry as much speed as possible while still having a very low risk factor for lowsiding due from braking?

I'm thinking the answer may vary depending on turns so for example, Turn 1 at VIR North or Turn 7 at Thunderbolt (left hander 1 turn after wheelie hill?)?

Thank you in advance!

Hey - you should check out the pics from Friday (image 194 but the jpg file is 197 to be exact) - you have the front end loaded up quite nicely (for comparison the next pic is of another BMW and I'm a couple after - you're noticeably more compressed than either of us). From a fundamentals standpoint and what they're preaching in this thread, in my humble opinion, it looks like you're doing exactly what they're suggesting (without the "ragged edge" part. I'm going to spare you the "dial it back speech" because we both know you're going to only half listen and think I'm a "worry wart" but definitely what they said. . .

 

[Pseudolus]

motorkas;278163 wrote: I'm going to spare you the "dial it back speech" because we both know you're going to only half listen and think I'm a "worry wart" but definitely what they said. . .

LMFAO!! I know things felt out of control and My next track day is in August so I'm going to come back out, focused on the basics.

 

[denbsteph]

Pseudolus;278166 wrote: LMFAO!! I know things felt out of control and My next track day is in August so I'm going to come back out, focused on the basics.

Are you heading back to VIR???????????? SSN Gig?????

I'm signing up Wed for all three days VIR, August SSN. I need a vacation!

If I'm not mistaken, I seen Greg White giving you the proper perspective concerning proper "Body positioning"?

If so I was the short bald headed dude standing there wanting to chat with him while he was schooling you. Then took off with BMW dude to get some cards from him.

If you are out at VIR during that time period, stop by the Sicilian Racing homeless shelter and tell some lies.......those are always entertaining.................

 

[jsin38]

Good thread. I have The Belly Pan article all queued up and ready to read tomorrow AM over some coffee.

I decided to work on moving my brake markers deeper this past Monday at Summit Main. At one point, I pushed a little bit past my new comfort zone in turn 1 and found that I was running out of pavement so I started to turn in spite of the brake pressure still being applied and it worked. Look, lean, and believe just like Dave Sanders said once. A whole new bucket of confidence to work with now. In small doses of course.

 

[bacolmm]

Dylan Code;278137 wrote: I think your question has many variables connected and a single answer would work in some cases but not others. It might help to think of trail braking in terms of fork compression as that is something a rider is fairly aware of.

Keith Code references to trail braking in 1983, A Twist of the Wrist Volume I.

“To get into a turn correctly, you must time the braking and turning so that the bike stays even, not going up or down, at the point you let off the brakes. You must let off the brakes at the exact moment your fork is compressed just enough for the speeds and cornering loads it will be undergoing through the turn. Apply the throttle so that the fork extension doesn’t change, or changes the least amount possible. This will allow you to go into the turn without any up and down motion. If your timing’s off, you may complain that the bike handles poorly, possibly thinking the shocks are gone.” P. 35

“Your target, or sub-product for any turn in which you brake and turn in succession, is timing the braking, steering and throttle so that fork and shock extension are kept as even as possible.” P. 35

“To go in perfectly, you would let off the brakes as you go into the banking just as the suspension is taking the load from the centrifugal force. This will give the smoothest entry. You back out of the brakes just as the turn takes over the job of compressing the suspension.” P. 36

“Using the brakes as an on/off switch, however, creates dramatic changes in the bike’s weight transfer and attitude, which makes the sensing of speed difficult.” P. 66

“Most riders have the idea that the brakes are some kind of on/off switch. Reach a brake marker and pull them on--get down to another marker and let them off. This isn’t true...” P. 62

“Think of the brakes as a reverse throttle.” P. 63


This is from Twist of the Wrist Volume II:

“Of course, you can’t quicken the steering if you’re still hard on the brakes.” P. 75

Regarding weight on the front:

“For steering, you want weight on the front to get that bite and turn action. From this perspective, you can get on the gas too early, before the bike has finished getting the extra advantage from the loaded front.” P. 59

Regarding fast riders and trail braking from the Soft Science by Keith Code:

“In almost every situation, the very best riders in the world finish their braking as they make their steering change while they are leaning the bike over.” P. 94

It seems to me there are two schools of thought; the TB school is to continue to brake during the steering input and all the way to the apex, the other school (I’d call this the Keith Code school, but Dylan, or anyone else can correct me if need be) is to get the braking done with the bike upright, let the brakes off, get the bike turned as quickly as possible, and get back to the throttle as quickly as possible. Are these two philosophies mutually exclusive or used in conjunction? TB in entrance corners / decreasing-radius, and KC in exit corners / increasing-radius? I can think of corners where you almost can’t help but TB, and some where it doesn’t make sense at all. I TB in specific corners, but my typical plan is more like KC. It sounds like for a lot of riders, TB is the norm and KC is the exception?

 

[noobinacan]

That's a old book, technology has changed, bikes have changed, tires have changed and provide a lot more grip/side grip.

Also, this is not the school teaching it first and being applied later...its actually done first by those with talent & lots of feel
and then the school will teach it

trail braking is the ONLY way...its safer and faster.
it allows you to fix mistakes.
Its done by folks club racing to national level to international level.

GP and moto2 bikes are setup so you can trail harder(compared to wsbk or production bike) while leaned over...

http://youtu.be/lLpJi9JL79g?t=39s

 

[Ducti Jockey]

noobinacan;283304 wrote: That's a old book, technology has changed, bikes have changed, tires have changed and provide a lot more grip/side grip.

Also, this is not the school teaching it first and being applied later...its actually done first by those with talent & lots of feel
and then the school will teach it

trail braking is the ONLY way...its safer and faster.
it allows you to fix mistakes.
Its done by folks club racing to national level to international level.

GP and moto2 bikes are setup so you can trail harder(compared to wsbk or production bike) while leaned over...

http://youtu.be/lLpJi9JL79g?t=39s

Trail-braking is a must in racing. If racers are doing it then when you obtain a decent command of your motorcycle then you should begin to do it.

 

[jsin38]

Professional rider. Closed course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77sFFczRSaI

 

[bacolmm]

The telemetry on this video shows when the GP guys are getting on / off the brakes...

http://youtu.be/yN28xBdPWHI

 

[gcally]

Check out this video and listen to what Dane Westby has to say about trail braking and bringing the bike back to apex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzYecr72WYI

When I first started racing (track day originations did not exist) I would never trail brake with fear of tucking the front end. As I got faster and moved to better equipment I constantly trail brake up to apex.

I find myself doing heavy trail braking when passing someone that is at equal speed as me. Sometimes the only way to pass is to come into a corner hot and try to scrub off as much speed before apex with trail braking.

 

[Ducati Pete]

From a Novice's Perspective

Hello JRA,

I am sure a lot of new guys will read this thread. So, I wanted to throw in my two cents, for what it's worth. I'm an old guy at 50 with 4 decades of dirt riding who converted 7 track days ago to .... well.... track riding.

In the dirt, the front brake is used ALL the time. While straight up and down, leaned over further than a road racer ever thought of, etc.... So, trail braking for me was a natural act that I could not stop myself from doing.

This past Monday was day 7 for me at Summit Point Main and my body positioning came into place on day 6 Summit Jefferson. I was riding realllly well and having a blast. My speeds were coming up fast and I was very comfortable and loose on the bike, brakes, throttle. I was in the grove.

I crashed Monday in T5 from the front letting go. For those of you who have not ridden Summit Main, T5 is a sharp left fishhook type of turn with a fast downhill section prior. Meaning, the brakes are on pretty tight right into the corner.

I am not sure what actually happened but I am fairly certain I was applying too much brake for my new found lean angles. There is no doubt the front let go and it could only have happened due to too much braking at too much lean, obviously.

With all this in mind........... to you new guys who are getting into trail braking. YES, do it and learn to do it well. I find the bike rides WAY better with the brakes on than not. BUT, in my case, my speed was coming up far faster than my mind was able to compensate for the trail braking I had gotten use to applying. From my very first track day I have been a real hard braker, too much actually. It's a dirt biking thing that I have broken to a certain point. But, trail braking can be applied very hard when you are slow and still stood up more than normal. As my lean angle number increased, my lighter braking didn't.

In other words, keep a balance in play while learning to recognize the signals given by the front tire as to how much brake and how much lean angle go together. I feel I am fortunate to use trail braking from the beginning as my skill sets will always include this aspect of control. BUT, if you are a fast guy with big lean numbers.......... I recommend you slow yourself WAY down while learning to trail brake and reintroduce your speed as you go. It's a delicate control requiring a lot of feel for the front tire.

Just my novice two cents for the novice trail braker.

Be Cool, Ride fast.
Pete