Paging JRA

[physicistkev]

John, had a bike question for you.

I know you recently, past year or 2, started up on a liter bike. I can't remember which Barber trip we chatted about your new venture, but I am very interested in your experience and any advice you may have.

I just sold my 600 and am starting to research the next ride. I came from the really old gsxr to the 06 zx6 and there are many options to look at now. I really liked the 600, great handling, forced me to ride the bike smarter, understand a bit more technically and such. The modern liter bikes seem to not have much of a downside over the 600s though. Back in the day, the liter bikes were significantly heavier and had vastly different handling characteristics. That 'seems' to not be the case any more.

For a rider that understands the pitfalls of relying on large hp to compensate for other deficiencies, are there other reasons to stay at the 600 level?

If you would rather respond offline, email me at physicistkev at gmail dot com

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[JRA]

Kevin, I think the main pitfall many people run into is trying to go trackday riding or racing on a 1000 too soon. I think most people have heard it said that starting small will teach you a lot more about the fundamentals of riding, and it's true that the majority of fast guys started small. People who begin their careers on 1000's I think frequently can be spotted as the ones who brake way too early, and get on the gas way too late. Another important thing to consider (and something I personally gave a lot of though too) is that mistakes on big horsepower bikes are magnified. Something you got away with on your 600 might very well put you painfully on your head on a 1000. As an aside, an observation of mine is that liter bikes get crashed more frequently than smaller bikes, and then you have the tire issues to deal with too.

To specifically answer your question though, there is a handling difference. They are harder to turn and flick period. Some handle better than others obviously, but I think no matter what brand you choose something that will become apparent that you might not have ever noticed before is how different the bike will feel from track to track. It really made me realize why a racer can go well one week and not so well the next, and why they spend so much time setting the bike up each weekend. I am definitely a set it and forget kind of rider, and I haven't been able to do that with either of my 1000's. I don't want to be messing around with settings at the track, and I think Chuck probably intentionally goes the other way when he sees me coming to talk to him because I have bugged the crap out of him for help. I don't know all of the reasons that this has been my experience and maybe not the experience of others. I would guess that part of that is the overall weight is heavier than my previous bikes, weight distribution is different, part is geometry I guess, engine design and weight of the crank, probably my riding style, and I'm sure a lot of other factors that you would understand better than me. One thing that is certain though is that I was rarely making any changes to the other bikes I have owned over the years. Once I had a good set up it pretty much worked everywhere well enough that I didn't need to worry about it anymore. With all that said though, I have really enjoyed it and wouldn't want to go back to a smaller bike full time. I feel like I've continued to improve my riding and that's the main thing for me.

Just FYI, my route to a 1000 was five years on a 600, and three on a 750 before I got my first 1000. I didn't move to the 750 until I felt like I was just flogging the crap out of the 600. Same for the 750. I'm not saying that is what everyone should do but I feel like it was the right progression for me.

I remember that old GSXR that you used to have from South course several years ago. It's not every day that you see somebody riding an old school GSXR at a track day.

 

[physicistkev]

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. You have given me exactly what I was looking for. Perspective. That old GSXR (1990) was a great bike. It sounded different, it looked different and it brought a lot of people over for conversations. I couldn't count the times I heard "That's the bike that got me in to motorcycles".

That being said, and Jeff (the gentleman who bought the GSXR) may not want to read on, it was like wrestling a bear on the track. I'm not kidding. I was whipped after every session. It pulled like a freight train (just as fast as an 05 GXR1000), it stopped rather well, but it was very hard to muscle that thing into and out of corners. It was the bike that got me from Intermediate to Advanced though.

Moving to the 600 was the best thing I ever did. I paid my dues on the old bike and was rewarded when I got on the 600. It was SO much easier to ride. So much more controllable. I quickly learned how to be much more technical, because I wasn't fighting the bike so much. The 600 made it so much more fun to go fast. I could just enjoy the laps when I wanted and I could really try to improve my riding when I wanted. The 600 simplified everything to do with riding. Getting to and from the track, maintenance and every lap I took on it.

I got rid of the 600 because of the lack of prospects for riding this year, not because I was unhappy with it or felt I have out grown it. I thought it would be nice to put the money aside for a year and get something a bit newer when I could get back on the track. Because of that, I now have a decision to make. Go get a 1000, and hopefully get the best of both worlds (modern handling with more hp)... or, get a 3/4 or 600 and keep that minimalist mantra I had going on. Now, I knew that the modern 1000s were going to be much more polished and behaved than the old GSXR, it was just an understanding of where in-between the zx6 and the old GSXR they would be effort wise.

I do have to color your input a bit. You are QUITE a bit faster than I am. I have the video to prove it. With my pace and attitude at the track, on the 1000, I may be able to get away with the set it and forget it mantra I so desire. But... Why go to something that just adds more complexity to an already busy experience. The simplicity I feel on the 600 absolutely makes the riding experience.

Your input was the perspective I was looking for. And, it seems, the reasons for shedding the original liter bike I had, still stand. Maybe not to the same extent, but the challenges of riding the 1000 are still there. I tend to think that unless some sick deal on a 1000 comes along, it's going to be another 600 or possibly a 3/4 in the garage for me. The simplified riding experience is just far to enjoyable to get something that requires more effort to have the same amount of fun.

Again, thanks for posting up.

I put way more detail on my decision than really necessary. This is so anyone looking at the posts for information, would have a better idea of where my questions come from.

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[adotjdot]

Hey Kevin,

I know you had addressed John here directly but after reading the thread I thought I would throw in a question and comment. When you said you moved from the old 1000 to the 600, was this a different bike from your Kawi that you just sold? You had the 636, right? The only reason I ask is that I have heard that the rideability characteristics of the 636 are different from most of the 600's. A 675, 750, or a twin would also have a much different feel. I think we talked about this at Barber, since I have moved to the 749 not only is it a much easier bike to ride, but the characteristics of the bike are very different. I would say if you are looking for something newer that will give you that same fun factor that you have been enjoying you may have some other options out there.

 

[JVance]

Hi Kevin! Long time no see! I hope to see you at the track this year.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

physicistkev;263491 wrote: Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. You have given me exactly what I was looking for. Perspective. That old GSXR (1990) was a great bike. It sounded different, it looked different and it brought a lot of people over for conversations. I couldn't count the times I heard "That's the bike that got me in to motorcycles".

That being said, and Jeff (the gentleman who bought the GSXR) may not want to read on, it was like wrestling a bear on the track. I'm not kidding. I was whipped after every session. It pulled like a freight train (just as fast as an 05 GXR1000), it stopped rather well, but it was very hard to muscle that thing into and out of corners. It was the bike that got me from Intermediate to Advanced though.

Moving to the 600 was the best thing I ever did. I paid my dues on the old bike and was rewarded when I got on the 600. It was SO much easier to ride. So much more controllable. I quickly learned how to be much more technical, because I wasn't fighting the bike so much. The 600 made it so much more fun to go fast. I could just enjoy the laps when I wanted and I could really try to improve my riding when I wanted. The 600 simplified everything to do with riding. Getting to and from the track, maintenance and every lap I took on it.

I got rid of the 600 because of the lack of prospects for riding this year, not because I was unhappy with it or felt I have out grown it. I thought it would be nice to put the money aside for a year and get something a bit newer when I could get back on the track. Because of that, I now have a decision to make. Go get a 1000, and hopefully get the best of both worlds (modern handling with more hp)... or, get a 3/4 or 600 and keep that minimalist mantra I had going on. Now, I knew that the modern 1000s were going to be much more polished and behaved than the old GSXR, it was just an understanding of where in-between the zx6 and the old GSXR they would be effort wise.

I do have to color your input a bit. You are QUITE a bit faster than I am. I have the video to prove it. With my pace and attitude at the track, on the 1000, I may be able to get away with the set it and forget it mantra I so desire. But... Why go to something that just adds more complexity to an already busy experience. The simplicity I feel on the 600 absolutely makes the riding experience.

Your input was the perspective I was looking for. And, it seems, the reasons for shedding the original liter bike I had, still stand. Maybe not to the same extent, but the challenges of riding the 1000 are still there. I tend to think that unless some sick deal on a 1000 comes along, it's going to be another 600 or possibly a 3/4 in the garage for me. The simplified riding experience is just far to enjoyable to get something that requires more effort to have the same amount of fun.

Again, thanks for posting up.

I put way more detail on my decision than really necessary. This is so anyone looking at the posts for information, would have a better idea of where my questions come from.

Thanks,

Kevin

Jeff enjoys the fight in making the 7-11 turn Kevin so no worries

BZ

 

[noobinacan]

Kevin

You're already decent on the 600 and know the basics (as in proficient in trail braking, body position into braking zone, getting on the gas early, front to rear balance and all the little tricks of the trade in between)

Lui said at Barber "750 is like a 600 with a reliable supersport built motor" and that was a 'aha' moment.
which means you ride a 750 like you would ride a 600, lots of lean and corner speed.

as you already know, to learn how to ride a liter bike fast is a whole new way of riding...Trail brake deep, get it turned, stand it up and get WOT as soon as possible.
and I think some of the new bikes with fancy TC and power modes just helps and gives you that safety barrier.

Personally, to me, its one of my goals, to be able to ride a liter bike FLAT OUT! or have, what feels like a satisfying flat out session and be physically fit enough to finish a session on it.

...but I'm just not ready for it yet.

in the end, for some tracks, I'd then take the 600 and for others, I'd take the 1000.

 

[physicistkev]

AJ,
I have lots of options. I know I am a cheap/frugal rider. Everyone should know that by now, but I understand the value in things and I am willing to spend money on something that has value. In this case, value is ease of maintenance, decent power, decent handling and reliability. If there are bikes out there that offer greater amounts of these things without taking away from the others, I would consider it valuable.

What I need to do now is I need to go out and see if my understanding is correct. For example, the question I posed to John was, is the 1000 really harder to ride or is it just perception. It's not just perception, the 1000 is more difficult to ride. Just like it was harder for me to ride the old GSXR. Now, I would expect the modern 1000 to be much easier to ride than the old GSXR, but not as easy as the 600.

I would think the 636 would not be much different from another 600 from the same time frame, but I could be very wrong.

I need to figure out if a Duc is really unreliable or is it just as reliable under the track conditions as a Japanese 600/750?

The whole point of my research is to figure all this stuff out and then find a quality version of the bike I want to get.

John,
Probably not this year, but certainly next year. I was looking for you at Barber in Nov, but you didn't make the trip.

Aman,
Thanks for the compliments on the riding.

The 750 is a choice that is very high on the list, but they have remained basically unchanged since 06. It's hard to justify paying top dollar for a newer version that offers little in performance over a 600 of a similar year. As an example, at Barber Boris's 750 was just slightly faster than my 636 in a straight line. Trey's 2009 zx6 was faster than my 636 was in a straight line. The minor performance difference isn't much at most tracks. Now, at tracks like Road Atlanta, the difference would be magnified with a bajillion mile long straight, but I don't ride many tracks like that. Getting an older 750 would be nice as the price would be good, but an older bike has a much higher potential of being a maintenance issue.

When it comes to the larger bikes, I have lots of video where I run down people on 1000s. Look at the last 7 laps of Barber on Sunday (Nov 11 2012) session 6. That was a 1000 that I was chasing. Now, it took me 7 laps to catch him, not to mention that I think he slowed down on the last lap when I caught him, but pay no attention to that . You can see the 1000s pull away in a straight line, but I usually reel them back in little by little in the corners. I always wonder why I can do that. Is it complacency on the 1000s pilot? Is it the reliance on straight line speed and not feeling pressure to carry the corner? Is the 1000 that much harder to ride around corners? Seems like the last one is the most likely. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone (JRA, Derek, Rob...).

The question I need to answer is what bike is going to be the most fun for me to ride while offering me the greatest chance to improve my skills and requiring the least amount of headache. This should be a piece of cake to figure out :banghead:

Kevin

 

[D-Zum]

I think you're hypothesis that a newer liter bike would be easier to ride than your old liter bike may be something you may want to reconsider.

The newer liter bikes may be harder to ride. They have the same wheelbase (generally) of the 600's, but WAY more power..generally WAY more power than your old 1100. The GSXR1100 had a 'Busa wheelbase...that's what you had to fight more than anything would be my guess. The sharper the sword, the more likely you are to cut yourself.

And you have that 1000cc motor spinning probably higher rpm's than your old 1100's motor went, so you have more gyroscopic effect of the motor internals spinning to wrestle with than on the old Abrams A1.

Bo and Trey have a bit of a straight line stretch on you because I'd bet they're both at least 40 pounds lighter than you are.

The GSXR us not unchanged since 06..they made major revisions for the newest release in 2011. It was essentially the same bike from 06-10. The newest generation was 20 pounds lighter and they made some serious changes in weight distro as well. The ECU's under the tank instead of under the passenger seat area of the subframe to make the wiring harness shorter (lighter) and the calipers are Brembo on the newer GSXR's versus Tokico. But, are we advanced enough as rider's to take advantage of all that shiny new technology?

Probably not.

John, Derek, DJ and some others we ride with..yeah.

 

[physicistkev]

Darrin,
You really think a modern 1000 would be as difficult to ride as my old bike? I can't imagine that at all. The old GSXR was 500#s and had the internals of a tank. I just have to think that a modern one would be much closer to the 600 in effort than my old 1100. But that's why I posed the question.

Anyone want to let me borrow their 1000 for a day :idea:

Are you calling me fat (as I put the bag or Oreo's down)

I didn't realize that the GSXR was updated in 11. Good to know, not that I would plunk down the money on something that new, but you never know.

Wait.... Don't you have a 1000? Or you did? Didn't you?

Kevin

 

[Godfather]

Idea!

Hey Brother,

I suggest you find a track day when the NESBA Yamaha Demo Bikes are at the track!:idea:

I rode the R1, R6, FZ1, and could have ridden the R6 for a second time at Vir South a couple years ago. Not sure if they are still doing the demo stuff anymore but this could be an option for you?

In the end, BUY WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY! If you want a LITER bike then get a liter bike, because BUYERS REMORSE sucks!:banghead:

R/
GDFTHR

 

[steve gould]

D-Zum;263551 wrote: I think you're hypothesis that a newer liter bike would be easier to ride than your old liter bike may be something you may want to reconsider.

The newer liter bikes may be harder to ride. They have the same wheelbase (generally) of the 600's, but WAY more power..generally WAY more power than your old 1100. The GSXR1100 had a 'Busa wheelbase...that's what you had to fight more than anything would be my guess. The sharper the sword, the more likely you are to cut yourself.

And you have that 1000cc motor spinning probably higher rpm's than your old 1100's motor went, so you have more gyroscopic effect of the motor internals spinning to wrestle with than on the old Abrams A1.

Bo and Trey have a bit of a straight line stretch on you because I'd bet they're both at least 40 pounds lighter than you are.

The GSXR us not unchanged since 06..they made major revisions for the newest release in 2011. It was essentially the same bike from 06-10. The newest generation was 20 pounds lighter and they made some serious changes in weight distro as well. The ECU's under the tank instead of under the passenger seat area of the subframe to make the wiring harness shorter (lighter) and the calipers are Brembo on the newer GSXR's versus Tokico. But, are we advanced enough as rider's to take advantage of all that shiny new technology?

Probably not.

John, Derek, DJ and some others we ride with..yeah.

The 05-06 was a complete redesign. Some say it was the best model. 07-08 was another complete redesign. The last overhaul came in 09 which is basically the same bike as the 12 today save for some brake and wheel changes.

Kevin, my take on riding a liter bike is this. Riding a 600-750 is like playing chess at tournament pace. You have time to calculate your next move, process all the information that is presented. A modern liter bike (a gixxer thou in this case) is like playing speed chess in the park. You have a microsecond to process all the data and you gotta make a choice. It gets easier in time but its only mastered by very few. My first 1000, 05 gixxer, took me years to get back up to my 750 speed. It was pretty discouraging. One thing I never get tired of though is when I twist that grip, the big jiggy tries to separate my arms from my body while it wheelies out of a third gear turn.

 

[D-Zum]

Yes Kevvy-Pooh, I have all three flavors of sport bike in my garage.

2005 GSXR1000 slightly modified
2006 GSXR750 slightly modified, probably my favorite bike ever.
2009 R6

 

[adotjdot]

Sounds like you have some test riding to do!

Seriously though, I hate to say it but that's going to be your best test of whether or not it's what you want. I'm sure you could adapt to something but if you do some searching you just may find that right fit.

As far as reliability from one manuf. to another, I think it's becoming less and less of an issue with the newer bikes. The newer Ducati's and Triumphs seem to be holding their own and are getting good reviews. I'm sure you could get some good feedback from Marlon or PJ on their bikes as well as plenty other Ducatisti here on the boards that swear by them. I have also been seeing more 675's out there too. The Japanese bikes probably have a better overall reliability. Hell, you could probably buy a Honda, change the oil every season and never think twice about it.

Godfather had a great suggestion of trying out the Yamaha demo bikes. Great place to start. Or you could just walk the paddock one day at Summit bumming test rides from people

Back to your original question about the rideability of a more modern 1000. I'm sure you would find a lot of things about it much easier than what you have ridden up to this point, but John had some great feedback about moving to a 1000. Personally, I know I have a lot of room to improve on a 600 or 750 twin. When you look at the AMA guys running in the Daytona class, they are usually only a few seconds off the pace of the Superbikes. That's pretty impressive.

Ultimately though, it sounds like you are doing the right thing. You are taking your time to do the research and find something that makes sense for you and that you will enjoy.

 

[physicistkev]

D-Zum;263573 wrote: Yes Kevvy-Pooh, I have all three flavors of sport bike in my garage.

2005 GSXR1000 slightly modified
2006 GSXR750 slightly modified, probably my favorite bike ever.
2009 R6

I hate you :moon:

The one thing I do see all the time, as Darrin shows above, is that everyone loves their 750. Boris, Darrin, Kendrick, John (Vance)... I hardly ever hear anyone talk badly about it.

I was always, halfassed looking to do the demo bikes. I think I will try to get a spin on an r6 and r1 when/if they come to Summit. I tried to look at the schedule for it and there dont seem to be any dates. I assume that once the riding schedule is out they will map out the demo schedule?

To be honest, the top two bikes I want are an 848 or a GSXR 750. If I had to by something today it would be one of those two, and knowing my frugality, it would probably be the 750 as I believe that it would be cheaper by a large margin. Not to mention parts availability, parts interoperability and so on. This exercise is really to make sure I have my wants in the right place.

All input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin

 

[D-Zum]

Hater's just gotta hate.

I don't hold it against you Kev. Much Love!

 

[betarace]

D-Zum;263587 wrote: Hater's just gotta hate.

I don't hold it against you Kev. Much Love!

GSXR750s will make you a man. Take it from someone liberated from the bonds of femininity

 

[D-Zum]

DAMN I have perky boobies!

 

[noobinacan]

ROFL opcorn:

 

[vinny337]

opcorn:opcorn: Hahaha, I just popped two bags.