Beginner or Intermediate

[Meat]

And it is so much more than just being quick, otherwise nesba would just post lap times in order to get bumped.

There are some intermediates that I feel very comfortable riding with, changing positions and pushing it a bit. There are others that are close to the same speed that are terrible. Their lap times are quick but I don't want to be near them. These are the people that, in my opinion, should not get bumped. If you really are a fast intermediate, then passing most riders will be fun and easy.

I personally like passing people. Sure, I would like to make it to A group, but I would like to have the skill to make it there, but then I guess I am just overly courteous because I would feel pretty bad if I was messing up most Advanced riders sessions because I was just an unpredictable advanced squid.

 

[Meat]

jimgl3;22461 wrote: Bust my Balls!

Bring it down here in the B group and earn the Bump if you're such a Bad A$$ !

Yep Jim, I think he is singling you out. You have done your 6 track days, right? And you aren't in Intermediate? Nesba must have screwed up, or maybe he is saying you are a failure at life.

LMAO!!!

 

[jimgl3]

he must have missed my rant about riding the RZ350 in the mountains of N Ga. !

I grumped about B group too. who wouldn't ?

but it didn't take me long to see what truly good people make up NESBA and to come to trust them with this decision - to bump or not to bump. they know what they are doing whether it's popular or not!

 

[stkr]

:crs: ----->

 

[stkr]

What's up with only 4 smilies/post? This was to follow...

:saythat:
.
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uttahere:

 

[jimgl3]

almost as annoying as the "your post isn't long enough" thing

that's just too personal! :moon:

 

[Meat]

jimgl3;22668 wrote: almost as annoying as the "your post isn't long enough" thing

that's just too personal! :moon:

I agree. Who has the right to judge my post to say that it is too short or too animated to be worthy of a nesba posting....lol!

:rtfm:

 

[jimgl3]

that's like telling a chic at Cordon Blu whose baking a meringue that her peaks are droopy!

 

[Meat]

jimgl3;22750 wrote: that's like telling a chic at Cordon Blu whose baking a meringue that her peaks are droopy!

LMAO!!! Awesome!

 

[Booty Freak]

Some dude at Jennings this past weekend blew turn 13
in the first novice session of the morning & got bumped to Intermediate &
then proceeded to blow turn 1 a couple of times in that group.

Talk about a questionable bump ??? :dunno:

I'm pretty sure the Nesba crew would of sat this dude down for a couple
of sessions. It didn't help he was on a 1000cc either.

 

[PARedVFRRider]

Well all I can say is that I wasn't really aware that you could start in I when I signed up with NESBA. I had only had one track day prior but I had already ridden a bunch on the street with NESBA A and I riders with a weeks worth of riding with those guys down in Deal Gap. The track day I did before NESBA sign up as also with those I and A riders and I held my own with them. I ended up doing 4 days with NESBA in B before getting bumped and one of them was a Skills Enhancement at Beaver where they don't evaluated for bumps. Other than the skills day, the other 3 NESBA B sessions were mostly painful. Lots of much slower riders that you had to hang behind and then get around on the straights. Sometimes there was way to much traffic to show your skills to the CRs. I got bumped to I my last time out at NJMP on 9/29. I can tell you the morning sessions that day in B were very painful. I was behind Mary (CR) on one session and we caught the last group leaving to start after the first lap, then proceeded to follow them a road pace for a full lap, after which Mary pulled off into the fast pit and tried then get some open track. The starter got us some open asphalt and we went out, picked up the pace and 3 corners later we were behind a line of 10 bikes running at what seemed to be 30 mph. The first two sessions were like this, no way you can get evaluated like that. Then the 3rd session I got out out front with Morph (B Captain) and we blasted around for about 1.5 laps. He waved me by after about 3 quarters of a lap after another 1.5 laps we were behind traffic again. I carefully picked off several of these folks on the straights but often got behind someone running much slower than necessary at the end of the straight which then had me caught for the next few turns on Lightning running much slower than necessary. After that session Morph told me to see him at lunch with that I got the bump and suddenly figured out what Track days are really supposed to be like. The afternoon sesssion in I were outstanding. Just as many bikes on the track and not all of them were super fast, the difference was that you could pass in the turns. I was careful since this was only the second time I was getting the opportunity to pass in the turns, but the carosel at Lightning is a great place to pass on the outside and I could get past most folks there. What a difference between B and I, just so much more fun. No one is riding at road pace. There are slower riders for sure, but you have more opportunities to pass them and to be honest it makes it more fun. So if you have confidence and have ridden and held your own with A and I riders on the street on during that those 6 track days I would say step into I. With 6 track days under your belt, I have to believe you are ready for I. They'll tell you if you are holding anyone up, but even if you are, if you are running good lines and are consistent and don't make crazy moves you'll probably stay there in I running your own pace and still have much more fun then starting in B and getting in the traffic Jam.

 

[Meat]

VFR Rider,

I can definitely understand your frustration, but after you got your bump to Intermediate.
How would you feel if you were blazing into a turn with nice speed, you plan on making a pass on the outside going into the turn because the rider in front of you is braking a bit earlier than you do. As you are just about to come around him on the outside, under braking, he quickly moves to the outside of the track? Do you really think that guy deserved the bump to Intermediate?

He probably had good lap times and may have even been pretty smooth on 90% of his turns that day, but he just noticed that he wasn't using all of the track as he was going into the turn and decided to make a last second line correction....right in front or right into you.


That to me is a beginner level move that I see often at Barber going into T1, in the I group. Last time I was there I discovered the little concrete strip off the outside edge of the track right before T1, because a rider came over right into me. I moved before impact because it was my responsibility to avoid him anyway. But even after I got onto the cement strip and to the outside of him in the turn, he looks over at me and tries to outrun me to T2....making a bad situation worse.

That was a very fast beginner move in my book. He was only a couple seconds (guessing) slower than me, but displayed poor skill and judgment.

Evidently you had the skill to move up, but there are other fast beginners that are in intermediate that really need a little more experience.

 

[Meat]

Some track orgs in TX/OK let Beginners pass on the outside, with at least 6 feet clearance, in the afternoon sessions. I felt that was an excellent system.

Intermediates can also cut up the inside, standing the bike up early, exiting a turn. Again, I think this is also a good system for them as well since if the guy does cut up the inside a bit earlier than he is supposed to by the rules, and gets on the throttle too hard and low sides, the rider he was trying to pass will not be hit because he is 3 to 6 feet away and accelerating away and the low siding rider is slowing pretty quickly.

But, do not take this as a complaint. I am happy with NESBA, I am just trying to help ease a bit of frustration on the track, with an idea from another part of the country.

 

[PARedVFRRider]

Meat,

I totally agree with you on the consistency thing and a rider being predicitable. If a rider makes a sudden move like you mentioned coming right to the outside on the exit of a turn I agree he doesn't belong in I, if that move was sudden and wasn't a smooth one. That was the point of my last sentence in the original post above. If the rider signing up is consistent with his/her lines, runs good lines, is predictable and doesn't make sudden line changes like you mentioned, they probably do belong in I and should probably start there.

Hey, I do want to make one thing clear. Even though I was sometimes frustrated in B for the first 3 non Sills Enhancement days with NESBA, I still had a great time. The other thing I felt is that the sessions were very safely run. I didn't necessarily feel that way with the first group I rode with on the track. The other thing I want to make clear is the folks in the B group going a bit slower fully deserve to be there! They are having a great time as well. I also believe the NESBA rules in the B group are the right rules for that group. I wouldn't want to be passing someone who was just learning on the outisde in a turn for the very reason Meat said, sometimes B riders make quick, unpredictable moves and if you are on the outside of them and they do something like that in a corner, a bad thing could happen. Heck in the B group several times this year, while passing on the straight I had individuals move right or left on the straightaway 8 to 10 feet for no reason that I could see. Coming up on them at speeds that were 20 to 30 mph faster or more...it isn't fun. Twice this year, I got run off the outside of the track mid straightaway by riders moving to the outside in unpredicitable ways. Didn't go down on any of those off track excursions, but it is scary when it happens. I wouldn't want to deal with that in corners since you aren't going to be able to save it if you are run off while leaning over.

With that said in I while passing in the corner on the outside....you need to keep in mind that the rider in front of you is going to drift to the outside exiting the turn and as such you need to be prepared for that while passing him. As long as the rider in front of you is running decent lines and not being unpredicitable, you can safely make that pass.

All in all, I had a ball in B and I think it was the right thing for me to start there. I didn't have enough track experience and I learn the safe ways to pass in B and how to make better passing decisions. My comments above to the original poster who asked the question were directed to his 6 track days he already had and if he was consistent (with his lnes) and made good decisions (being predicitable), and was smooth, starting in I was probably a better decision.

I wish NESBA did have a complete Newbie group...that you had to go through or perhaps a newbie skillls day you needed to go through before jumping up to the normal B group. I know it probably isn't practical to do that, but separating the better B riders from the folks just starting would make it a bit safer and I also think it would make the day more fun for the riders who are in B at both ends of the skills spectrum.

But with that said, I think NESBA does a great job running their track days and is clearly the safest group around to ride with no matter where your start.

Hey and bring on more Skills Enhancement days next year. That format is awesome!

 

[jimgl3]

here i go running my big mouth again, and it may well just be me, but i really think there could be some track by track group shifting permitted, not mandated, but permitted... e.g. i am comfortable at Rd Atlanta and think i could get around in I and improve my skills, but had i made it to I and then hit Barber... good Lord, I would have suffered! after lunch i was getting the hang of it and maybe now i could get around in I, but the way i have seen those I group guys bust out of there once the yellow comes down in the first session... it would not have been pretty. i would have had to pit for sure.

This may also ruffle some feathers, but i no longer relate street riding to track riding. it is too different. personally i don't see how anyone can take their skills from the track and apply them on the street w/o killing themselves.

shutting up now:shutit:

 

[D-Zum]

There's no comparison to street riding versus track riding. As there is almost no comparison to track days versus racing. I can run a respectable pace in I group now, but on the street my bike might as well have training wheels on it.

I feel EVERYONE should start in Beginner group minus a couple of exceptions. It's not just about speed to move to the next level. It's about safe judgement and courtesy to other fellow riders on the course while you're out doing your thing, you should not impede others doing their thing. NESBA's not about bumps...NESBA's about having fun and learning. B, I, or A, we all learn and we all have fun. The ONLY exceptions to new riders who should be allowed to join and not have to join up in B group, in my opinion, are:

- Expert level or AMA Pro racers should be allowed to sign up in A group with approval from a director

- Novice racers should be allowed to sign up in Intermediate, with a Directors approval.

JIMGL, trust me..going to a new track in the faster groups is a not easy.

 

[stkr]

Hey Jim - I don't think it's a matter of switching groups for the new tracks. I just did what you described when I went to Barber for the first time. I've been running in I-group, and at the local tracks I'm a strong mid-pack rider, but at Barber I felt like a beginner again.

The first few sessions out, I rode like a pansie, and I got passed a LOT. The difference is that I held my lines steady, made no suprising adjustments, and I also consciously (sp?) tried to leave enough room for whoever might be trying to come by on the outside. As the day went on, and my pace picked up, I was holding my own with the locals. Day two ended up with me lining up at the front of fast lane behind two other bikes, and I managed pretty well without getting passed. The hardest part for me was trying to keep up with the thought of cold tires in the back of my mind.

I think the key to this equation is that as a rider, in ANY group, you have to remember that it's not a race, and that you have the patience, and take the time needed, to evaluate the rider you're trying to pass, and determine how you can do it safely.

I have watched my videos from Barber over and over, and I can see many times where I "could have" passed, but I made the choice not to because there was either another bike in front of them and I didn't want to push the passing rules going into the next turn, or because when I made the good pass, it put me on the inside going into the next turn. I'm always trying to think ahead to the next two riders, or next two turns when I'm deciding on how to handle my current position on the track. Yes, this does cause me to be overly cautious sometimes, but it also keeps me from getting into situations that might possibly piss me off, or startle another rider that is unsuspecting. You can see in the videos where I've backed off and let the other rider have the track. I just deal with it later on in another corner since I don't have the power to take many people on the straights.

My Barber Videos

Dam...this is going to be a long winter.

 

[Nexus]

Interesting debate...

I just want to clear something up. If the first time you ever attend a NESBA event you register as "Beginner" are you stuck in there until a CR gives you the bump? Not meaning the same day but lets say you register for future trackdays are you locked out from registering as an "Intermediate"?

But if a guy registers for his first trackday as "Intermediate" there's a chance he could stay there for as long as he likes as long as he doesn't get demoted to B or bumped to A?

===

This is a good topic with good discussion but I do not fully understand if you are "locked" into Beginner if that's what you register as the first time.

 

[HondaGalToo]

Nexus;23700 wrote: Interesting debate...

I just want to clear something up. If the first time you ever attend a NESBA event you register as "Beginner" are you stuck in there until a CR gives you the bump? Not meaning the same day but lets say you register for future trackdays are you locked out from registering as an "Intermediate"?

But if a guy registers for his first trackday as "Intermediate" there's a chance he could stay there for as long as he likes as long as he doesn't get demoted to B or bumped to A?

===

This is a good topic with good discussion but I do not fully understand if you are "locked" into Beginner if that's what you register as the first time.

Yes, if you register for the first time with NESBA, and sign up for the B group, that is where you'll stay until you are bumped by a CR. Once you're in the computer system, you can only register for your assigned group. If you sign up for B, you cannot register in I for subsequent trackdays. Once you get a bump to I, the directors will change it in the computer, then you can register for I when you sign up for your next trackday.

 

[Meat]

Nexus;23700 wrote: Interesting debate...

I just want to clear something up. If the first time you ever attend a NESBA event you register as "Beginner" are you stuck in there until a CR gives you the bump? Not meaning the same day but lets say you register for future trackdays are you locked out from registering as an "Intermediate"?

But if a guy registers for his first track day as "Intermediate" there's a chance he could stay there for as long as he likes as long as he doesn't get demoted to B or bumped to A?

===

This is a good topic with good discussion but I do not fully understand if you are "locked" into Beginner if that's what you register as the first time.

It actually makes a little sense. If you have done say 10 or so track days with another track organization (you are in their Intermediate group) and you decide to join NESBA, you would more than likely try to sign up for Intermediate. If you have not ridden any track days, you would be stupid to sign up for Intermediate because you have no idea what it is really like.

I think that part of the system works pretty well and as long as that secret is not leaked to every newbie. Then when you are in Intermediate you won't be pissed off because the group ended up getting flooded with newly signed up Beginner riders in Intermediate group.....when they should have signed up for Beginner to begin with.